Author Topic: The CAPE debate  (Read 7072 times)

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Offline John Allen

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The CAPE debate
« on: 01 December 2006, 06:50:27 AM »
One of the common values that is bartered when discussing Thunderstorm formation dynamics, and thunderstorm potential is CAPE. Convective Available Potential Energy (the energy available to a parcel passing its level of free convection within the thermodynamic profile)within storm forming situations is generally 1-1.5k J/kg excluding outside forcing. Values for Supercellular and Multicellular systems are more in the 2000 J/Kg-to values around 6000 for HP supercells in the US.

What id like to discuss is within the Australian Enviroment what CAPE/CIN values effefctively suggest strong convection, and allow the formation of the various supercellular systems. Note that this intially is purely in ignorance of the shear factor. How does this compare to situations noted within the Alley.
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Offline David C

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Re: The CAPE debate
« Reply #1 on: 01 December 2006, 12:53:25 PM »
One of the common values that is bartered when discussing Thunderstorm formation dynamics, and thunderstorm potential is CAPE. Convective Available Potential Energy (the energy available to a parcel passing its level of free convection within the thermodynamic profile)within storm forming situations is generally 1-1.5k J/kg excluding outside forcing. Values for Supercellular and Multicellular systems are more in the 2000 J/Kg-to values around 6000 for HP supercells in the US.

What id like to discuss is within the Australian Enviroment what CAPE/CIN values effefctively suggest strong convection, and allow the formation of the various supercellular systems. Note that this intially is purely in ignorance of the shear factor. How does this compare to situations noted within the Alley.

Hi John, just a quick input as I'm too busy with work at the moment, but it's an interesting topic.

There are no magic numbers, that's for sure. I have seen the US rule-of-thumb figures that you posted. I guess that is based on HP's developing often when there is rich and deep moisture in the boundary layer (hence, likely high CAPE). In addition to thermodynamic instability, vertical windshear is also important -- you can't exclude either since there is a sort of inverse relationship between the two. ie higher-end CAPE and weaker vertical windshear can produce supercells as can lower-end CAPE and stronger vertical windshear. These things know no geographical bounds - so whether in Australia, the US or Bangladesh, it makes no difference. Ditto for CIN - there are rules of thumb only (that, typically, indicate whether or not a CAP is likely to hold). Remember though, when you have very strong forcing, a seemingly very strong CAP (high CIN) can break. Conversely, and I think the infamous May 3, 1999 Oklahoma/Kansas event was an example of such, where forcing is weak, a weak CAP might actually enable convection to remain discrete, whereas in the same situation, strong forcing might result in widespread (and perhaps less intense on the storm scale..) convection. Of course then you have mini-supercells that develop in what would be regarded as low CAPE environs,, but they are technically supercells nonetheless. It is all very complex with many inextricably interrelated factors ---> lots of semi-useful rules of thumb :)

Slight diversion....I reckon that it is possible that things get interesting when CAPE is extreme - I had a brief chat with Jimmy regarding this after he alerted me to the fact that many of the Bangladesh tornadoes show north -> south damage swathes. These events are rare (let's say CAPE values >8000J/kg). That is incredible instability. Compare to the Jarrel tx event - was this such a 'freak' event (ie was the tornado dependent on the fortuitous alignment of outflow boundary/ cold front / gravity wave) or is it a more common outcome in extreme CAPE situations.

Any other thoughts?
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Offline Jimmy Deguara

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Re: The CAPE debate
« Reply #2 on: 01 December 2006, 01:19:12 PM »
Thanks David,

You and I posted at the same time and your post ruined my post lost in eternity haha.

The basis of my point really is how can one make CAPE completely exclusive from shear? I think a more realistic question would be given the lowest shear profiles, what are the lower CAPE values that have produced supercells.

My response then would be - when does a supercell get recognised as such? We do not have an effective doppler radar network. Further, we don't even have the capacity to get the best estimates of CAPE within a particular location - ie the nearest soundings may not be representative of the storm's environmental conditions at the time of supercell evolution.

Interesting nevertheless. Off hand I will have to think about this one. The Newcastle hailstorm early this month and the Ebor storm occurred in relatively low shear environments. So the CAPE values were higher. If I had to estimate based on model data, supercell events that come to mind with CAPE values at the lower end of the spectrum are the following:

1st September 2001 - LP supercell near Wyong

26th November 2002 - LP supercell near Canberra

both were relatively elevated supercells and in strong windshear environments. Sufficient lapse rates would have played an important role in their development.

Regards,

Jimmy Deguara
« Last Edit: 01 December 2006, 01:49:33 PM by Jimmy Deguara »
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Jeff Brislane

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Re: The CAPE debate
« Reply #3 on: 16 December 2006, 11:51:25 AM »
CAPE values are the same the world over. 5000 cape for example is extreme no matter where you are in the world. And 2000 cape is sufficent to produce supercells anywhere in the world as long as there is windshear. You could say that >1000 cape is weak and can't produce decent storms, let alone supercells, but the truth is that Tornadic Supercells have formed in such "weak" CAPE enviroments >1000!

CAPE alone doesn't make supercells and you can't say that one particular figure is a gaurentee of supercell formation. You can't divorce CAPE from all other factors when discussing supercell potential as it's the mixture of factors that determines the overall potential of any particular atmosphere to produce supercells.

You have to be more specific, for example, by giving some winshear profiles and then asking what type of thunderstorms can develop in those windshear profiles.
« Last Edit: 16 December 2006, 12:22:06 PM by Jeff Brislane »

Offline Jimmy Deguara

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Re: The CAPE debate
« Reply #4 on: 18 December 2006, 02:42:48 AM »
Hi John,

I note that the discussion which is a good one has diverged somewhat from the initial intent - just so other readers can follow. And although we will attempt to discuss factors known to influence tornadogenesis, we should take Chuck Doswell's advice that we are veering further away from understanding the full dymamics associated with tornadogenesis the more we peer into it! I would like to note that this discussion is particularly related to my favourites – warm season supercells (let cold season tornado climatologies be discussed separately).

Tornadic supercells be it in Australia or Tornado Alley are atmospheric accidents. I think it is the frequency that varies significantly between the two countries (that is a point of discussion in another topic). So what factors influence the differences between supercells becoming tornadic in Tornado Alley as compared to Australia?

You mention lapse rates - I think this is one of the key common denominators that signifies an extremely unstable atmosphere. Based on purely model data, there is often significant difference in lapse rate values during supercell outbreaks sometimes painted as potential tornadic outbreaks in Australia as compared to tornadic outbreaks in the United States. Looking historically to any of the violent tornadoes in Australia, you do get the impression there is that common denominator - steep lapse rates associated with short waves and sometimes cyclogensis.

But just like the original question re CAPE in absence of windshear, trying to distinguish other factors is dangerous. But I guess comparing the occurrence or absence of such factors can perhaps try explaining the difference in climatologies between Australia and Tornado Alley.

You mention wind shear - I think this is a significant difference between the development of sculptured and organised supercells including tornadic supercells. In my chases across the various regions of Australia, rarely have I had the opportunity to experience strong low level inflow. I could count such occurrences on one hand! Given the opportunities of most seasons in Tornado Alley, the converse is true.

But low level flow is, except in extreme circumstances, is pointless in the absence of moisture. The source of strong inflow is the normally rich moisture from the warm Gulf of Mexico. In Australia the source of our strong inflow - dry desert air - potentially great for bushfires rather than supercells and tornadoes.

Lots not forget the importance of negative tilt shortwaves however subtle in association with destabilsation discussed above and its importance in initiation and explosive development of supercells. I find the absence of these encourages incorrect wind profiles and alignment of supercells.

That leads to yet another factor - the cap. Landform features in the Tornado Alley region as Chuck Doswell suggests is an atmospheric laboratory. Westward rising landmass and the elevated desert play an important role in creating a cap of warm dry air overriding and mixing with moisture along the dryline. Except in early spring outbreaks, this dryline feature virtually remains a permanent feature along the New Mexico and Texas border. Important to note, the Rocky Mountains play an important role in enhancing multiple pulses of short waves ejecting across the plains. So whilst the cap suppresses energy, eventually one of these features will help release it by weakening the cap (lowering the CIN).

Each factor above play their role collectively enhancing the development of tornadic supercells or at least the potential. But we have only touched the surface here. In the process of tornadogenesis, I doubt we know the answer yet. Much has been discussed in relation to the role of rear flank downdraft and inflow interaction, and the temperature of the RFD influencing tornadogenesis.

In summary, the problem exists: where and when will we see supercells? When and where will supercells become tornadic? In terms of the factors mentioned in this discussion, I doubt they are mutually exclusive.

Regards,

Jimmy Deguara
« Last Edit: 18 December 2006, 02:46:47 AM by Jimmy Deguara »
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