Author Topic: Questions about Lightning  (Read 10343 times)

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Swirl

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Questions about Lightning
« on: 24 January 2006, 05:47:00 AM »
SILLY QUESTIONS :)  ???

Question 1: On a clear day - can lightning strike? (Have seen a bolt of apparent lightning out of blue sky with no storms in region.)


Question 2: Is it possible to see localised lightning at all - and not hear thunder at all? I know this is likely a "no way", but could it happen if there were no return stroke?

Offline Jimmy Deguara

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Re: Questions about Lightning
« Reply #1 on: 24 January 2006, 05:02:32 PM »
Hi Kerry,

I would not suggest they were silly questions at all. To my knowledge, there is no real univerally acceptable understanding of what really causes lightning and lightning behaviour.

Can lightning occur with no thunder. We have to be careful here. Normally as well are lead to understand, as soon as you see a lightning, depending on the distance, you will get a delay and then thunder is heard. I have on video a few lightning bolts from an anvil where no thunder is heard. Well I never heard it whilst there and we did not hear thunder on video. Does this mean there was no thunder? Perhaps our ears can't hear some faint thunder. Dogs have a different threshold of hearing than we do and can detect thunder more readily than humans. Some humans also have a slightly different threshold.

I hope this perhaps stimulates more discussion than answers the question:)

Regards,

Jimmy Deguara
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Swirl

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Re: Questions about Lightning
« Reply #2 on: 24 January 2006, 07:40:53 PM »
Thanks Jimmy,
 
My first question having been that of lightning in a sky with no clouds, no storm - I've seen a solitary lightning bolt which wasn't that far from my location come from a cloudless sky. This one google isn't helping me with :) The closest description I got was of heat lightning which still requires a building storm, however rainless to initiate from. Has anyone else seen this occur?

As for Q 2:

The information I have been reading is mostly off this "lightning glossary" I found on-line ~ it peaked my interest once a good debate began at my workplace on whether or not these things are possible. The only open minded responses came from myself and one other in a room of about 10 people at lunch, all others were heatedly negative responses with added ridicule :) so I decided that regardless that I would do some reading and see what the experts have to say on the matter and found it astonishing that the topic is almost avoided. However this glossary I found made for interesting reading on what "is" known.

http://www.lightningeliminators.com/Lightning%20101/lightning_glossary.htm

From what I've been reading - Thunder is a result of the descending lightning bolt making contact with the stepped leader that reaches up from the ground to meet the bolt, which then sends a return bolt of energy causing the shockwaves along the path the lightning travelled and these shockwaves are what we hear as Thunder and the sound and vibration from these shockwaves can travel around 10 km's in any direction.

It also says that a lightning bolt which is a 'negative cloud ground' strike can send many 'return strokes' causing considerable thunder to roll through the skies, though a 'positive cloud ground' strike rarely more than one 'return stroke'. So this made me wonder some more ~ as positive cloud ground strikes seem to be a minority in most storms I've watched on radar, that it may be possible for a cloud ground strike not to make contact with the stepped leader it's aiming for, which could result in a lack of a return stroke. This would result in no shockwave being sent along the lightnings path, hence no sound from a shockwave which did not occur?

I agree that animals are more sensitive to storms than us, and especially many Dogs have an extreme sensitivity to what we term inaudible noise. My older Dog experienced his first storms as a pup while I was at work, they had been directly overhead and they affected him badly. After that I tried to spend a good amount of time around stormy weather with him - I'd eat and drink sharing some food as the storm began then lie down with him and pretend to sleep. He's 7 now and hasn't been worried about storms since he was about 18 months old. Now when there is a storm, he curls up on his bed and takes a nap  ;D though just prior to storms both my Dogs follow me around closely enough you'd think they were glued to my leg :) my younger dog who is now 5 always takes his lead from myself and my older dog so he's fine, but will only relax and nap when I sit down too :) Mind you, when the storm is close so that thunder literally cracks overhead - he lifts his head then with his eyes bugged out  :o but now only becomes upset when the power and lights start to flicker. My answer to that - turn all power off and my lanterns and torch on and enjoy the ride :)

Cheers,

Kerry.


Offline Michael Bath

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Re: Questions about Lightning
« Reply #3 on: 25 January 2006, 02:26:52 AM »
Hi all,

Every discharge of lightning will cause thunder. It is the sound generated by the superheating of the air through which the electricity passes.  It is possible for you not to hear the thunder, even if you are fairly close to the lightning - it all depends on topography and objects - and the angle of the lightning relative to you, as this determines which way the sound waves will travel.

Visually, the positive CGs tend to be those fully branching ones which do not have return strokes.

I have heard of lightning from cloudkess skies, but I think it followed in an area that had convection or storms some time earlier - was that the case for what you observed ?

Animals can certainly hear the quieter or more distant thunder compared to people.

Regards, Michael

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stormlab

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Re: Questions about Lightning
« Reply #4 on: 18 March 2006, 01:20:43 PM »

 Hey,

 Once I talked with some chasers and they told me about a case, when the lightnings were close but no thunder was heard. They mentioned the lapse rate. The problem is that the sound goes in different way in different stratification, the acoustic properties of the air changes for example when there is a stable layer or absolutely unstable. In such situations the lightnings can be 2 km away from you but the sound the move over you at some height and not to reach you.

 Lightnings from clear sky... hmm... possible of course, the reason for such event is a thunderstorms in the distance. The lightning can travel up to 15 km or even more, then the storm can be far away and the topography to hide it (like in a valley), or low visibility like in a haze), in such situation the observer can be on 17 km from the storm and 2 km from the lightning. Not trained observer will make no difference between anvil and light non-convective cirrus in the distance;)

 Best Regards,

     Angel Dimitrov

Offline Mike

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Re: Questions about Lightning
« Reply #5 on: 20 December 2007, 10:19:48 AM »
I've not witnessed lightning for a clear blue sky without a storm in the area - not saying that it has not happened - but perhaps this refers to storms at a distance that flang out a strike at length into blue sky.  I have seen big bolts reach outward from the storm and for someone not in the vicinity it would certainly seem as though it came from nowhere if they could not see the storm in view due to topography and the like.

It's a question that I have not been able to Google either - similar descriptions of 'bolts out of the blue' but it's a crystal ball question until the experts even find out.

Mike
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Offline Jimmy Deguara

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Re: Questions about Lightning
« Reply #6 on: 20 December 2007, 02:42:50 PM »
I think what Angel is suggesting given an European setting of storms being beyond view due to mountainous terrain. So although I would not have witnessed this myself, I would say it is definitely possible.

Lightning from clear sky? I am not sure as to what physics would be at work for such an event to occur.

Regards,

Jimmy Deguara
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Offline Mike

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Re: Questions about Lightning
« Reply #7 on: 20 December 2007, 05:16:56 PM »
I might do some scouting around online and with the met boys to see what they have to say about clear sky bolts - I think it would be fascinating to find out if it does happen, and if it does, why!  Will be in touch as they say....

Wikipedia has this to say about it...A bolt from the blue is a term which refers to a form of lightning that strikes out of an apparently cloudless sky. In fact, it actually originates from the anvil cloud atop a thunderstorm which may be as far as twenty miles away. It carries around ten times the current of an ordinary bolt of lightning and has a positive charge while most other lightning has a negative one. This commonly is known as positive lightning.

NOAA says this about it at: http://www.crh.noaa.gov/gid/Web_Stories/2004/other/lightningsafety/intro/introduction.php

USA Today resource lightning page says this at http://www.usatoday.com/weather/resources/askjack/walightn.htm

Q: Can lightning strike when there's no cloud above it?

A: The phenomenon of lightning striking from what is apparently a clear sky is sometimes referred to as "a bolt from the blue." The fact is that the lightning always originates from a parent thunderstorm cloud, but the storm can sometimes be more than 25 miles away from the lightning strike. It is not uncommon for a person to be struck by a "bolt from the blue."

Because there may not be threatening clouds in the immediate area and no rain to from which to seek shelter, people may be relatively unaware of the lightning threat. This is why you should always seek shelter when thunder is first heard, whether or not the storm is visible. It's also a good idea to wait 30 minutes or more after the storm passes before resuming outdoor activities.


..and this final link which has EVERY possible lightning question answered - i think this link will be of most help. 

http://sky-fire.tv/index.cgi/lightning.html

What is a bolt from the blue?
A bolt from the blue. It is more than just a figure of speech. Lightning bolts can on occasion jump 10 or more miles out from their parent cloud and appear to strike in a region with blue skies overhead. Such was the case on this date in 1995, when lightning struck a ball field near Miami, FL, injuring 10 children and a coach. The skies were clear save for a line of clouds to the distant northwest


All the resource articles agree - you need a thunderstorm within the vicinity, even if it is out of view.

Mike







« Last Edit: 20 December 2007, 05:35:43 PM by Mike »
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