Topic: Should warnings be issued for lightning

[Steven]

The storm that passed through the south east of QLD late yesterday, cut power to around 10 000 houses and business according to news reports. We had some very usefull rain with the storm band,

Brisbane  15.2 mm
Archerfield 12 mm
Double Island point 51.6 mm
Tewantin      21.8mm

Col.

Gee and they didn't even see fit to issue a storm advice/warning! Storms shouldn't have to qualify as having 2cm hail and big gusts of wind before a warning is issued. IMO an advice might have been a good idea that storms are on their way and notify residents to keep lookout for them in case there's a blackout; or just as a precaution in case the storms suddenly intensify to severe levels. It's just common sense...

Of course I'm not talking about the embedded thunderstorms in rain bands. They're mostly harmless.

[Jimmy Deguara]

Steven,

Lightning is not classified as a component of severe weather. It is difficult to predict though with current technology of lightning detection lightning behaviour can be monitored and a separate type of warning could be issued to the public given lightning is a significant cause of deaths.

Regards,

Jimmy Deguara

[Michael Bath]

There is a place for lightning warnings but probably only for certain sectors within the community at extra risk. eg. outdoor workers, golfers etc

The general public would get very complacent if every storm had a warning attached to it - especially in areas where thunderstorms are fairly common. Knowing the forecast mentions "chance of late thunderstorm" etc should be enough for most people to realise there will be a risk of lightning if dark clouds are on their way - even if they have no idea how to identify dangerous weather by looking at the sky.

MB

[David C]

I think we had a similar discussion to this back in the days of the aussie-wx list.  My own thoughts are still the same and pretty much what Michael wrote above....that is, I think all severe thunderstorm warnings should have a cautionary statement on lightning thrown in. Lightning is basically random and a low risk phenomena at the person level, such that a warning with every storm would not be effective. While it might seem pretty obvious to anyone that a direct hit has a pretty good chance of killing a person, ongoing public awareness at every opportunity would seem prudent and including such in the regular warnings issued over the storm season would be one option.

In the US, SPC issued severe thunderstorm watches such as "NWS warnings Hail to 2 inches in diameter... thunderstorm wind gusts to 70mph... and dangerous lightning are possible in these areas.' The NWS severe thunderstorm warnings are often "If you are in its path, prepare immediately for damaging winds, destructive hail and deadly cloud to ground lightning. People outside should move to a shelter, preferably inside a strong building but away from windows".

[Antonio (stormboy)]

I have noticed from past storms that when there is a severe electrical storm lightning is added into the warning information.

stormboy

[Steven]

Steven,

Lightning is not classified as a component of severe weather. It is difficult to predict though with current technology of lightning detection lightning behaviour can be monitored and a separate type of warning could be issued to the public given lightning is a significant cause of deaths.

Regards,

Jimmy Deguara

Jimmy et al,

While I agree wholeheartedly about lightning detection and warnings, my original post was not focussed on lightning itself, but rather the general characteristics of thunderstorms and their very nature to change size, shape, direction, speed and severity. So I apologise for causing a slight misunderstanding with my original post.

I suppose it's just common sense to stay inside when there's lightning around, whether or not the average 'Joe' out there realises that.

[Jimmy Deguara]

No worries Steven,

My concern is despite, the warnings of severe weather and lightning safety education and awareness, people are complacent anyway because hits and deaths from lightning are not as common as it may seem.

I tend to find though that specific lightning active thunderstorms are more associated with lightning strikes and hits on the populatipon. The most recent examples in Sydney are March and late December last year.


December 29th 2008 - severe storms were very lightning active and it seems there may have been people struck
http://www.australiasevereweather.com/photography/photos/2008/jd20081229.html

March 25th 2009 - lightning active event particularly in western Sydney
http://www.australiasevereweather.com/photography/photos/2009/jd20090325.html


Now it is correct that lightning should be included in the general warning but if there is a very lightning active event, then upgraded warnings should indicate this increased risk.

Regards,

Jimmy Deguara

[Ursula]

I have some theories on lightening and am monitoring lightening strikes when possible to that effect, it came about watching on my drive home one night that lightning was most active on mountain tops etc. like 'sacred mountains' indignous reference and fault lines, I was fortunate to have a look at old maps for the region I live in, and yes strikes are more common along them, deep valleys (caldera's) and on mountain tops, they seem to look almost like the spring out of the top to the sky and not the other way around, like the magnetic forces in the sky get a reply from the forces within our planet. Willy Willies, dust devils mender along the fault lines as well, one can watch them on hot summer days.
I woke up to a 'sound' half asleep, it was most likely the M'man 'mini' tornado, sounds a bit like half pregnant, I hear sounds to before earthquakes, it is a bit unnerving at times, but then there is a bird which makes a certain sound in the mornings, I am not sure which bird and there are thunderstorms around that day, my big boy (dog) freaks out about an hour or so before, I can feel them too by then.
I have learned to live with it, most of the time it is all right sometimes I feel almost sick and it isn't.

I am not sure this is the right place for my ..

[Richary]

Ursula I certainly agree with lightning following certain paths. For example here in Sydney places with the ironstone (I believe) hills around the southern suburbs (Peakhurst, Mortdale etc) seem to attract their fair share. The Hills district to the northwest also seems to get a lot more, and there is a regular track through Glenorie/Hornsby etc. When I lived in Adelaide when we did get lightning it also often followed a path to the south of the city along the hills and around towards Mt Lofty - and that is a known fault line.

As for being in touch with the weather in advance, I don't discount it as different people have different senses. Not one I am in tune with but nature can be. I have enough experience with otherwise inexplicable "psychic - for want of a better term" things to know they are real. Off topic for this forum though.

As for warnings, I was surprised that I didn't receive any EWN warnings via email or SMS for the Sydney storms the other night, given the bureau had issued a warning that covered my area.

[Jimmy Deguara]

Richary,

I have heard yarns mentioning about storms following paths of stone and obviously having more lightning. Gympie is another region that also has been mentioned.

Obviously, if storms pass across a specific area, certainly you could get more lightning activity based on cloud to ground microphysics but we must be careful referring to regions whereby ironstone or fault lines influence paths of thunderstorm activity. Could it be just coincidence - storms develop in boundaries formed by mountain ranges? My suspicion suggests this to be the case.

Furthermore, you tend to get more of these yarns coming from relatively active periods. Blacktown was also mentioned as a storm path where the ground attracts storms and it is no ironstone nor mountainous region. I think when it got referred to, the region has been hit by many pretty nasty severe storms.

Regards,

Jimmy Deguara

[Ursula]

I used to live in Kurrajong and found that when a storm hit and it was on the Penrith side of the 'gap' it would go to Blacktown/Penrith area and on the other side to windsor and the hills district.

[Paul D]

Fully agree with Jimmy :-

My concern is despite, the warnings of severe weather and lightning safety education and awareness, people are complacent anyway because hits and deaths from lightning are not as common as it may seem.

Spent some time in the WA/Pilbera where there have been a number of incidents of workers being struck by lightning, even though a lot of sites (mining) have well constructed plans for shutdown in the event of severe weather (close proximity of lightning), in most of the cases I have experienced the plans are rarely implemented before the storm's already raging and your out on the ground evacuating during the most dangerous period of the storm. Even on a site where someone had been killed by lightning a couple of years prior it was still rare to have everyone to shelter before the storm was already halfway in progress. This is the result of general view/opinion (even when the risk is fully known) a view still held by most people : it won't happen here or to me.
(Another thing or excuse on the sites I experienced they started using / relying on hand held lightning detectors, which to me are at best vague and don't even correlate with what your eyes are telling you.)

Given the mostly random nature of lightning, and peoples tendency to drift with time toward complacency, warnings for lightning can in reality only be effective if they are continuing generic reminders ie If a storm is approaching and within app X distance (say 7km horizontally) or you can hear thunder take appropriate steps to seek enclosed shelter. Otherwise if lightning warnings that are for some reason only issued for severe lightning events will lead the public to a tendency to only associate danger with very active systems where the warnings are issued.
One of the deaths over west few years back was from a nondescript cloud which produced no rain and only one lightning bolt.

Wondering what happens when you mix tyres and electricity:-

See : [http://www.minerals.org.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0017/26009/SA08-03-Lightning-strikes-stationary-truck.pdf]

Paul

[Jimmy Deguara]

Your statement:

Given the mostly random nature of lightning, and peoples tendency to drift with time toward complacency, warnings for lightning can in reality only be effective if they are continuing generic reminders ie If a storm is approaching and within app X distance (say 7km horizontally) or you can hear thunder take appropriate steps to seek enclosed shelter.

triggered a flash back to Sydney airport a couple of weeks ago. The ruling there was that any lightning activity within 10nm (nautical miles) closed down the airport. Sophisticated lightning detection together with triangulation can easily achieve spacial accuracies of at least in the order of a few metres. All staff were given the order to take shelter. What I was alerted to was also a blue light scattered throughout the vicinity of the airport that flashes slowly throughout the 'danger period'.

Food for thought.

Regards,

Jimmy Deguara

[Colin Maitland]

Wondering what happens when you mix tyres and electricity:-

See : [http://www.minerals.org.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0017/26009/SA08-03-Lightning-strikes-stationary-truck.pdf]

Paul

That is extensive damage to the truck Paul, a person in the wrong place during that event would off easily been killed or critically injured. I know those trucks a worth a small fortune, but did they write it off or rebuild it?

Jimmy, I think that is a brilliant idea they have at the airport. It could well be implemented in many other work places or even public facilities. It would also levitate a portion of the liability placed upon a contractor or employer for the safety of the individuals, either workers or visitors, that fall under their responsibility.  An education and procedure plan would have to follow once a system was set in place.

The only area this would not cover is the so called hero/ poser who would have a captivated audience while dicing with death, who then places the safety of others in jeopardy if an incident was to occur. IE: a job I was on many years ago was shut down due to a storm, most took cover and watched a contractor continue to screw off a tin roof while there was severe lightning. After a few close strikes and very loud concussed thunder, he came down off the roof to the cheers of "you idiot." The whole scenario would have differentiated if the roof/ himself  had been struck while he was working on it.

Another incident occurred at the Royal Brisbane Women's Hospital at Wilston. We had an early morning storm that was very violent. The cranes continued to work while the lightning was at its peak. One crane was struck causing severe damage to the machine. A drama then unfolded as they had to rescue the operator from the tower crane during the storm, fortunately he was only meters from the emergency causality at the hopsital, his ear drums were ruptured and had burns to his body.  After this incident, QLD Work, Health and Safety made it mandatory for all high rise cranes to be shut down and evacuated before and during a storm.

I don't think you would ever cover the area of clown, fool (or other adjectives you cant use on the forum) in the event of a storm.

Getting back to the airport system, yes I think any form of warning and education by an employer or company of a public facility is worth the effort.

 (Just reminded me of Suncorp Stadium in Brisbane, on the news they showed how staff had huddled thousands of people into the foyers and walk ways of the arena during a severe storm that struck just before Andrea Reiu (I think that is how you spell his name, the violinist) was to perform. The storm lasted about 40 mins.Then every one was able to return to their wet seats. But the point is they implemented a safety plan which was good.)  

With law suites abundant and compensation amounts going through the roof, you really do have to cover yourself. Also, just for the fact that you may safe a human life is in itself an important reason.

It is also a very tricky area to try and get right as well, so many variables would play a role in each storm.  

Late edit: the best system would be that of educating kids at school about the dangers and what to do in the event of a storm. Just talking to my daughters and there is no such education at this stage for them and there is no procedure in place if a storm was to hit while the kids are out playing.

Col

[Richary]

Jimmy - the airport one reminds me of a day trip to Brisbane about this time last year. 6:30 flight out of Brisbane, all loaded and they were about to push back but had to clear the tarmac as a storm had got too close. Long slow moving line that took about 2 hours to go over. Then because we had been idling they had to top up the fuel tanks as he had to have it on full throttle to make Sydney in time before the curfew. That ended up a long day!

Hmmm, got a day trip back up on Thursday. Luckily the conditions don't look like they will be quite the same!