Topic: Doppler Radar and Australia

[enak_12]

I wanted to start this topic to ask a few questions about the Doppler radar upgrades that the BOM have been installing.

It was great watch the recent supercell in Bonnah on a high resolution radar. The 64km images show a lot of detail compared to 128km images especially compared to images from the other radars and the wind profiles were great for identifying the meso in the storm.

My question is are the old radars around the country doppler radars with low resolution or are they a different type of radar? On the BOM site they say they are replacing "15 obsolete radars in the network and implement an enhanced Doppler radar capability in 6 locations. These Doppler radars will allow for the replacement of a further 5 radars in the network". So if there are only going be 6 of these high resolution radars then will we only have access to that more detailed information in those six locations or do the other radars provide this detail but are not available to the public to see?

I would love to be able to use the Grafton radar in the same way as the Mt Stapleton radar but it wasn't mention for upgrade or replacement.  I guess this means I won't have access to that type of detail anytime soon for my area? Tamworth is getting one of the High Res Radars but that is around 230km away from Coffs is this to far for the radar to display supercell characteristics better then the current Grafton radar?

[Michael Bath]

Hi Kane,

Another doppler radar has just come online in Brisbane for additional storm research. I had heard this was happening some time back but not sure if any of its images will be available on the web - media release:
http://www.environment.gov.au/minister/ps/2007/pubs/psmr27sep07.pdf

There are several types of radars in use around the country. The BoM pages pretty well cover what they are in detail here:
http://www.bom.gov.au/reguser/by_prod/radar/info/NSW.info.shtml
then click the links on the left hand side for other states.

We won't see the extra detail (like 64km images) at other radar sites like the newer Dopplers show, they don't have the resolution. The BoM have their own software for zooming in, and viewing the radar in 3d but we are stuck with the lower resolution scans.  At least the Grafton radar is pretty detailed. It's always had a good calibration compared to other sites using the same type of radar IMO.

MB

[enak_12]

Thanks for your reply Michael,

Looks like a great project for SE QLD. It's good to know the Grafton radar is quite accurate. It's a shame we don't have one of the new Doppler's   still but I realise these would not be at all cheap.

Kane.

[Michael Bath]

The new Melbourne doppler radar came online today, well overdue from what I can tell.

[David C]

I wanted to start this topic to ask a few questions about the Doppler radar upgrades that the BOM have been installing.

My question is are the old radars around the country doppler radars with low resolution or are they a different type of radar? On the BOM site they say they are replacing "15 obsolete radars in the network and implement an enhanced Doppler radar capability in 6 locations. These Doppler radars will allow for the replacement of a further 5 radars in the network". So if there are only going be 6 of these high resolution radars then will we only have access to that more detailed information in those six locations or do the other radars provide this detail but are not available to the public to see?

I would love to be able to use the Grafton radar in the same way as the Mt Stapleton radar but it wasn't mention for upgrade or replacement.  I guess this means I won't have access to that type of detail anytime soon for my area? Tamworth is getting one of the High Res Radars but that is around 230km away from Coffs is this to far for the radar to display supercell characteristics better then the current Grafton radar?

The 'older' radars that comprise the BoM weatherwatch radar network are not Doppler radars.
The upgrade to the network is given as follows:

    * Six new Doppler radars with double the resolution of weather watch radars at Adelaide, Brisbane, Sydney, Melbourne, Tamworth and Yarrawonga; and
    * The replacement of 15 of the Bureau's weather watch radars at Learmonth, Port Hedland, Broome, Perth, Carnarvon, Mt Gambier, East Sale, Williamtown, Townsville, Mackay, Gladstone, Mt Kanighan, Charleville, Darwin, and Tennant Creek.

So I'd say the better of the 'older' radars will be shifted, wherever possible, from areas where Dopplers are to be installed (eg Sydney, Yarrawonga, and Melbourne maybe) and are hence surplus to requirements at that site, to areas currently without any radar. As to what model of conventional radar will be used who knows, it seems they have every make and model imaginable -- WSR 81C is used at Yarrawonga, this was installed only a few years back, and might be the newest of the conventional radars? Grafton is a WSR 74 S Band radar and is everyone's favourite

Obviously there is not an limitless pot of money, so the Doppler radars have been planned and/or installed where there is a priority (be it meteorological or political). Adelaide (some academic collaboration), Melbourne (let's say BoM's home), Brisbane (legitimate severe weather). Sydney already has a Doppler and so I assume it is down the list for that reason, although Terrey Hills seemed to be in motion as the next in line after Melbourne. Tamworth is an area where many severe storm occur and is a rich agricultural area (in more ways than one) and so it is not unexpected that it is on the list, basically not being served by any radar at the moment.

Currently, there are only three of the newer doppler radars (which are 10cm, S-band) in Australia; Adelaide, Brisbane and now Melbourne.
Sydney had the first Doppler a 5cm C-band Doppler (in fact Sydney had two C-band dopplers, one C-pol, in operation at around the time of the olympics).

The Brisbane area now has the additional S- and X-band polarimetric Doppler radar (CP2), which according to the info on the web is to be used primarily in hydrometerology and now-casting. As I suspected after reading the initial media release, this radar is for all intents and purposes non-operational -- in the following I just read that indeed it will be "quasi-operational" haha. I very much doubt that you will see this radar online, unless you are within the BMRC

-- Why S- and X- band, why polarimetric radar  >> http://gpm.gsfc.nasa.gov/6thworkshop/Presentations/Day_Two/18-Rutledge-GPM_Workshop.pdf)
-- More information available on this project here >>
* http://ams.confex.com/ams/pdfpapers/123253.pdf and the thinking behoind it here * http://www.bom.gov.au/bmrc/basic/old_events/hawr6/qpm/may_moveto_quantit.pdf

A case study which used the kurnell doppler is here http://ams.confex.com/ams/pdfpapers/123550.pdf
and for the dual dopplers during 2000 olympic games period here, >>

http://ams.allenpress.com/perlserv/?request=get-document&doi=10.1175%2F1520-0426(2002)019%3C0888%3AARSAPD%3E2.0.CO%3B2
3 November hailstorm and tornado case

[enak_12]

Thanks for the extra info David. Fascinating reading even though the jargon is somewhat beyond my current knowledge base, still interesting information from what I could decipher. 

[David Brodrick]

I went to the BoM's spotter training course last month and asked Michael Logan when the ETA for the Tamworth RADAR was. He said they were hoping to have it up for this season but it looks like it won't be done until right towards the end of the season.

From my understanding of the timeline, now that Melbourne and Gympie are done, next comes Perth and then Tamworth. It will be great. Personally I'd also love to see one further out west, say at the Met office at Cobar, but I don't think that's on the current agenda.

[David C]

Actually David Yarrawonga is already installed with one of the newer systems. The location makes alot of sense if you consider the scope of severe storm development, I was viewing some data from it the other day with a front passage. Looking forward to using the increased coverage for better nowcasting in my more common chase region. The siting of Tamworth is definitely a big step forward in the coverage of severe storms in my opinion.

Excellent, did not know that John - is the WSR 81C a doppler, or is that information on the BoM site outdated? I assumed all the new doppler radars would be S-band?

[David C]

I went to the BoM's spotter training course last month and asked Michael Logan when the ETA for the Tamworth RADAR was. He said they were hoping to have it up for this season but it looks like it won't be done until right towards the end of the season.
It will be great. Personally I'd also love to see one further out west, say at the Met office at Cobar, but I don't think that's on the current agenda.

Eventually it'll get there. For NSW, I agree that Cobar would be a good site and also Dubbo which is on the edge of things right now and is a large inland city. A radar there would also serve Parkes which is now a major transport hub. The Riverina is covered pretty well by Yarrawonga and also Wagga. Not sure what is happening to Terrey Hills, although there may be some local government issues concerning the site.

David, what did you think of the BoM spotter training course?

[Shaun Galman]

Hi guys,
This is indeed a very interesting and informative thread! I hope the BoM can place radar in a few new locals asap, the areas such as Cobar and Dubbo are much needed. I've always thought Bourke would be an ideal location for radar (even a 128k radar would be ok?) as I've witnessed and heard of many destructive severe storms (with quite large hail) coming through the upper western region on more than one occasion, going unnoticed until it's too late! Our dilemma here (Lightning Ridge) is that we have countless millions of dollars worth of mining equipment out on the opal fields and no prior warning facilities other than an unaccurate STW broadcast on the radio (from Moree or Bourke) for our region? The Moree radar just doesn't quite cover us with any form of forecast ability and is only useful (and partly accurate) once the weather has passed through our way and reached Collarenerbri, coming into range of the 256k Moree radar.

I'd guess there are quite a few regions around Australia that are in a similar bind, so I hope the Bureau can do their best with what they have at their disposal. 

I brought this idea up with Michael B. a while back and I'm glad to see that finally some nice ideas are being thrown around!
Cheers and take care.
Shauno

[Jimmy Deguara]

David,

I heard through the grapevine there is finally going to be a radar installed near Parkes or Dubbo. I greeted this news - we will finally realise what goes on out there!

Regards,

Jimmy Deguara

[David C]

David,

I heard through the grapevine there is finally going to be a radar installed near Parkes or Dubbo. I greated this news - we will finally realise what goes on out there!

Regards,

Jimmy Deguara

This is all great new - good for the communities concerned and good for us data hungry storm chasers
I love the country around Parkes, Forbes to Dubbo. If the area could get a more regular moisture infeed I could see myself living out there. Then again if my aunt was a bloke she would be my uncle.....oh well.

Yes, it will be very interesting to be able to more closely inspect some of the storms that develop east and along the inland trough - some very high instability out there when the moisture gets in.