Topic: Dunoon Tornado, Mini-tornado terminology and radar locations

[Gambit]

Hi all,

Sorry for the newbie question but I have seen a few posts mention that it was incorrectly called a "Mini Tornado"

Is this term incorrect because it either is a tornado, or its not, there's no definition between mini, large, et cetera? and the measurement of size of a tornado is on the F scale.

thanks in advance

Mat.

[Michael Bath]

Yes - it is incorrect to those with a weather interest because it is either a tornado or it isn't.

I don't mind extra words used to describe whether it was a small or large tornado in terms of its funnel structure or an indication of its wind speed and destructive power. But who in the media or general public is able to determine how small, large or mini a tornado is when they have little idea about these events in the first place.

The Fujita scale should not be applied to a tornado until damage assessment is done.

Regards, Michael

[Gambit]

OK thanks for the clarification Michael

Regards.

Mat

(i need 10 words at least to post message)

[Jeff Brislane]

I have two questions resulting from this event which should be posed to the BoM but probably won't.

Firstly doesn't the tornadic supercell which produced this tornado at Dunoon strengthen the case for a Doppler Radar at Grafton seeing as the North East of NSW has more recorded incidents of Tornadoes than SE Qld?

Secondly, why hasn't the BoM issued a media release describing the events around this storm using proper terminology and explaining in even basic detail as to how and why this storm developed and produced a tornado? At least then the Media outlets would be getting the correct info and terminology. The silence of the BoM over this storm is deafening. If they were in the habit of doing such debriefs for the media and public for that matter immediately after severe storm events like this than the misconceptions and poor terminology would dissapear.

Jeff.

[Gambit]

I have two questions resulting from this event which should be posed to the BoM but probably won't.

Why not? If they aren't aware they may very well not know. It wouldn't hurt to maybe subtly suggest?

Firstly doesn't the tornadic supercell which produced this tornado at Dunoon strengthen the case for a Doppler Radar at Grafton seeing as the North East of NSW has more recorded incidents of Tornadoes than SE Qld?

What information would a Doppler Radar give us? Is there anyway that we could influence the BoM to get one? Letters, Lobbying?

Secondly, why hasn't the BoM issued a media release describing the events around this storm using proper terminology and explaining in even basic detail as to how and why this storm developed and produced a tornado? At least then the Media outlets would be getting the correct info and terminology. The silence of the BoM over this storm is deafening. If they were in the habit of doing such debriefs for the media and public for that matter immediately after severe storm events like this than the misconceptions and poor terminology would dissapear.

I agree entirely. Our BoM has a very low profile in the Australian media and in the public eye in general. It would most certainly not hurt them to increase their profile and educate people on basics when it comes to severe events as I believe they are going to become far more frequent.
The more educated people are the more accurate information can be collected and passed back resulting in further development/education. and then the cycle continues.

Also people will be better prepared for severe storms like the one in Dunoon and ultimately be safer.


Regards

Mat

[David C]

I have two questions resulting from this event which should be posed to the BoM but probably won't.

Firstly doesn't the tornadic supercell which produced this tornado at Dunoon strengthen the case for a Doppler Radar at Grafton seeing as the North East of NSW has more recorded incidents of Tornadoes than SE Qld?

Secondly, why hasn't the BoM issued a media release describing the events around this storm using proper terminology and explaining in even basic detail as to how and why this storm developed and produced a tornado? At least then the Media outlets would be getting the correct info and terminology. The silence of the BoM over this storm is deafening. If they were in the habit of doing such debriefs for the media and public for that matter immediately after severe storm events like this than the misconceptions and poor terminology would dissapear.

Jeff.

I totally agree Jeff regarding Doppler radar at Grafton. Even though there is a tendency for these areas to be grouped as "south-east QLD, north-east NSW", when it comes to severe storm frequency they are poles apart. Then again the locations of the radars are basically political not meteorological.

We still have this widespread belief here that tornadoes are a uniquely American phenomena. Sure, that is justified to some extent, however, a long history of tornadoes in Australia, some at the high end of the Fujita scale, indicate that the risk is real. Events such as these really should get the BoM into second gear promoting their 'new' technology (ie Doppler radar), and the tornado hazard in Australia. At the end of the day, and not a criticism of BoM employees, but the public service in this country is steeped in institutional inertia.....and at the upper levels, no one wants to make a decision.

[Jeff Brislane]

I'm no longer convinced of the need for a doppler radar in the Tamworth area. I definately think that they need a conventional radar both at Tamworth and near Dubbo but not a doppler. I think it would make more sense to put three new dopplers along the east coast. One at Grafton and one somewhere around Kempsey and one at Newcastle. They could then relocate the Lemon Tree radar to Tamworth and the old Grafton Radar to Dubbo.

There are far more instances of supercells producing violent wind and damaging hail in the coastal/hunter areas.

Jeff.

[Jeff Brislane]

There's no doubt that storms with large hail and violent winds occur on the NW Slopes and Plains, however I believe the majority of Tornadoes have occured along the Tablelands and coastal reigons including the Hunter Valley. And the hail records show larger sizes have occured along coastal regons than inland. Who could forget the 10cm recently near Muswellbrook? And also the famous hailstorms in Kempsey and Taree?

But also the more important consideration is population density and it's obvious that it's increasing faster along the coast than inland. Towns and small cities like Port Macquarie, Kempsey etc currently only have fragmented radar coverage and the area is prone to supercells.

I think that both the population and historical records both concur that the coast is far more important than the inland for doppler coverage.

John, your reply explains the reason for your opinion to install a doppler radar at Tamworth but not Grafton. What's your explanation for Grafton?

Back to the mini tonado debate and I've now heard people call the dunoon tornado a hurricane, typhoon, willy willy and a mini tornado. It seems like people know every other terminology except the right one!

Jeff.

[Carlos E]

Sorry for the newbie question but I have seen a few posts mention that it was incorrectly called a "Mini Tornado"

Mini-Tornado is slightly better than when the news calls them "Mini-Cyclones",

[Karina Roberts (slavegirl)]

Was listening to multiple storm reports from friday through to now to hear what weather terminology was used and it disgusts me that these news reporters cannot get the terminology right,   the BOM or someone needs to inform them of correct terminology, i had a friend say to me did i see the news footage of a 'mini' tornado and i replied you mean the tornado and i got "no, the mini tornado thats what the news person said so thats what it is" so not only do they get it wrong the general public then gets a misconception of terminology due to the news reporters not knowing.

[Carlos E]

no, the mini tornado thats what the news person said so thats what it is" so not only do they get it wrong the general public then gets a misconception of terminology due to the news reporters not knowing.

Yeah, I almost bite peoples heads of when they say things like that. I think the media is STILL under the assumption that this country does not get the almighty and power Tornadoes, which is so untrue.

[Jimmy Deguara]

Hi guys,

I am always wandering why people are getting so worked up about the incorrect use of this terminology. Unless Australia suddenly gets bombarded with a series of tornadoes over several years, you may as well head bang the brick wall than expect correct terminology. Even when the upload of my video was occurring, the person on the phone also mentioned "this amateur camera man shot video of a mini-tornado". I was too late!!! I must say though that a few TV stations did use the word tornado so that is encouraging.

It is embedded in the Australian language along the lines of the words willy willy and cock-eyed bobs.... I prefer mini-tornado than these.

Don't get me wrong, sure we should try changing such habbits but I have now seen the same sort of threads and messages so many times on various forums it is now getting monotonous. In fact to an extent it has added more credibility to the search term in google "mini-tornado"

Regards,

Jimmy Deguara

[Carlos E]

Edit: Corrected my mistake.

Hi guys,

I am always wandering why people are getting so worked up about the incorrect use of this terminology.

I agree with you. I'd rather hear Mini-Tornado (least it still has the word in it), than Willy-Willy, dust devil, or.... my favorite.... Mini-Cyclone (I don't know why this bugs me so much, but it always has), which people instantly start thinking of Tracy and Larry.

[Gambit]

I guess I can draw an analogy or two...

If you had say a V8 and a 4 cylinder Holden commodore car (the VB commodore came in a 4 cyl flavour) no one would call the 4 Cyl a "Mini-Commodore" because it was less powerful. And it would be a preposterous notion to do so.

I can't see, how it is any less acceptable to do the same with something that if not given due care and due respect will kill you stone dead.

The term "Mini" takes the severity out of anything; think for example, of a Miniature Pony, you'd just walk up and pat it not a second thought in the world. However a pony or a horse for that matter you'd be a little more apprehensive maybe not apprehensive, cautious is a better word.

It is better for the for the most part average okker to be aware of the possibility that a tornado could pick up a chunk of house and throw bits of it at you HARD! 

What I am trying to say is that the word Mini takes the bite out of it ,softens it a little, not so big and dangerous and scary when in all reality if you had have been in that church or one of the houses out at Dunoon last Friday it would have been every bit "Large as life"

[Jimmy Deguara]

John,

I think that the naming issue isnt as concerning as peoples using of a 'mini' prefix to mean they are weaker

I never took the term 'mini' as meaning weaker but I did take as being smaller.

Great you have quoted the Bureau staff informing the public but did she inform the media? It is the media they have to educate and then the public will be informed by the media. Almost a waste of time. We'll see how effective this was until the next tornado episode occurs in Australian in 2000......and....?

Regards,

Jimmy Deguara