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Australian Weather Mailing List Archives: 28th October 1998

Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 07:21:47 +1100 (EST)
From: Paul Graham 
To: Aussie Weather 
Subject: aussie-weather: Yesterday's Waterspouts...
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Hi everyone,
	My sister informst me that on this morning's channel 9 TV news,
video footage of yesterday's waterspout was shown.  She said it was very
spectacular and seemed to show a fairly wide funnel - has anyone else seen
this?
	- Paul G.

----------------------------
Paul Graham
m3052695 at hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au
----------------------------

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X-Sender: mbath at ozemail.com.au
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 08:28:07
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
From: Michael Bath 
Subject: Re: aussie-weather: Yesterday's Waterspouts...
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The best footage was at the end of the 6.30am news bulletin on channel 9
this morning (28/10). It showed the thunderstorm structure as well as close
ups of the funnel. The funnel was quite long and wide. This mornings
papers: The Sydney Morning Herald on page 3 has an excellent photo, while
The Telegraph mentions the cold/snow and funnel with some comments from
Andrew Treloar (severe weather section NSW BoM). Apparantle several funnels
were spooted off Bilgola (northern beaches).

Michael


At 07:21 AM 28/10/1998 +1100, you wrote:
>Hi everyone,
>	My sister informst me that on this morning's channel 9 TV news,
>video footage of yesterday's waterspout was shown.  She said it was very
>spectacular and seemed to show a fairly wide funnel - has anyone else seen
>this?
>	- Paul G.
>
>----------------------------
>Paul Graham
>m3052695 at hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au
>----------------------------
>
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> -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
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*==========================================================*
 Michael Bath  Oakhurst, Sydney   mbath at ozemail.com.au
                 Australian Severe Weather
       http://australiansevereweather.simplenet.com/
*==========================================================*

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Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 08:32:06 +1100 (EST)
From: Paul Graham 
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: Re: aussie-weather: Re:  Waterspouts off Sydney...
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> Speaking of the waterspouts, I noticed that you observed overshooting 
> tops (which i always seem to associate with supercells) with the offshore 
> storms - is it possible that these spouts may be associated with 
> mesocyclones rather than misocyclones.

Hi Dave and everyone, 
	Although these sorts of storms may not as deep as continental
summer storms, I noticed the tops flattening out at the tropopause
(tropopause is lower in a cold atmosphere) with an area overshooting this
level.  I am quite intereted in the concept of shallow supercells.  These
supercell type storms occur in conditions of relatively low CAPE and high
low level shear and have indications of a mesocyclone circulation.  They
can spawn the same sorts of severe weather that their high CAPE cousins
can.  I don't know what was going on yesterday though.
Have a look at:

http://tornado.sfsu.edu/geosciences/March5_Coping.html
- not very detailed though...

Phil King from the BoM is being interviewed on the radio right now about
their formation and is saying that they form from the sea level up rather
than the cloud to the ground. 

- Paul G.
----------------------------
Paul Graham
m3052695 at hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au
----------------------------                                                   

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X-Sender: mbath at ozemail.com.au
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 08:35:43
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
From: Michael Bath 
Subject: Re: aussie-weather: Yesterday's Waterspouts...
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Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com

The SMH online has a photo of the waterspout:
http://www.smh.com.au/
Click on PageOne

Michael


At 08:28 AM 28/10/1998, you wrote:
>The best footage was at the end of the 6.30am news bulletin on channel 9
>this morning (28/10). It showed the thunderstorm structure as well as close
>ups of the funnel. The funnel was quite long and wide. This mornings
>papers: The Sydney Morning Herald on page 3 has an excellent photo, while
>The Telegraph mentions the cold/snow and funnel with some comments from
>Andrew Treloar (severe weather section NSW BoM). Apparantle several funnels
>were spooted off Bilgola (northern beaches).
>
>Michael

*==========================================================*
 Michael Bath  Oakhurst, Sydney   mbath at ozemail.com.au
                 Australian Severe Weather
       http://australiansevereweather.simplenet.com/
*==========================================================*

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Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 11:33:41 +1100
From: Michael Scollay 
Organization: Telstra Strategy & Research
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To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: Re: aussie-weather: close lightning
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I can recount four experiences of close lightning;

1) Katoomba High School, February, 1978 during my chemistry laboratory
lesson. Our clown of a teacher "Hammo" broke into laughter as
everyone's hair stood on its end preceding a storm. The girls with
long fine hair in particular look the treat as if they were hanging
upside down! The lightening hit something nearby within a minute.

2) Katoomba, October 1978 (My HSC studying days:-). Lightening hit
very near to our home near Echo Point. The force of the thunder clap
was enough to make a large sliding glass door jump off its tracks by
breaking a roller! It also destroyed our TV balun & signal splitter
then partly destroyed the receiver of our TV. We ended-up replacing
the balun, lead-in cable, splitter and a few bits in the TV that were
"charred". The TV has never fully recovered.

3) The most spectactular was at Mt. Conabolas (big hill near Orange
NSW) while I was working in the Telstra facility there about October,
1985. The tower is bristled with antenna of all sorts with direct
lightening strikes happening hundreds of times a year. The Main
Distribution Frame (MD]F) room had flat iron bars that extended from
ceiling to floor the all around it on the inside. Just like an iron
cage. I was standing on the steps looking at the MDF when lightening
hit the tower. The cage in this room lit up like a Christmas tree as
the energy literally dissipated in all directions, mostly to Earth. It
made one very cautious about just touching the walls during lightening
storms.

4) Northbridge Golf Course, Good Friday, 1998. I was walking back from
the No.5 green along the path to the No.6 tee about 8:30am just as the
skies opened up to end our game. I put my umbrella down very quickly
(and too late) as lightening ripped through the tree about 20m away.

Michael Scollay       mailto:michael.scollay at telstra.com.au

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Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 11:45:30 +1100 (EST)
From: Paul Graham 
To: Aussie Weather 
Subject: aussie-weather: Waterspouts...
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Hi everyone,
I had a look at the photo shown in the Herald.  It appears to be fairly
thin which is I think fairly typical for this type of ocean tornado. There
were reports of other spouts about too.  I have a feeling that convective
cell outflow may have had a roll to play in their formation given the
thunderstorms around and the reports of other spouts in the region.  As
air spills out from the storms, regions of vorticity can develop along the
outflow boundary.  Warm sea surface temperatures along with a sharp
temperature lapse due to the cold air would have aided their formation. 
Perhaps this is what happened yesterday. Sometimes they can arise even in
fair weather given the right sort of conditions.  A relative who was in
the Air Force was telling me how he used to pick them up on radar while
flying - he said there'd be dozens of them sometimes and also thinks they
are fairly common off the NSW north coast.

- Paul G. 

----------------------------
Paul Graham
m3052695 at hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au
----------------------------

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Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 11:54:48 +1100
From: Michael Scollay 
Organization: Telstra Strategy & Research
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Subject: Re: aussie-weather: Ball Lightning...
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Paul Graham wrote:
> Has anyone had an experience with ball lightning?

I think that what my wife (Kym) and her friend (Jane) observed in
their teenage years (early 1970's) from their bed looking out of the
bedroom window of old Technology Ski Lodge (in Front, Valley, Perisher
Valley, NSW) across to the flatter area toward what is now the "Self
Loader" (Leichart T/B) could have been ball lightening.

They describe that conditions that night were calm but stormy. Other
lodge elders describe that night (which they can't pin-point to an
exact date) as resulting in heavy hail accompanied by strong variable
winds (noted by the directions that the hail struck windows on the
lodge) followed by heavy snow in almost calm conditions that is rare
during winter.

Kym and Jane observered what they call a "ghost" that weaved between
trees in a random fashion only to dissappear from view. As I don't
believe in ghosts, the only natural phenomena able to do this IMHO is
ball lightening.

There is some substance to their story since the usual pranksters
weren't in the lodge that week, the "ghost" was very bright, other
lodgers were "straight-laced people" i.e. honest and sensible, and the
phenomena was shortly followed by a memorable storm.

Michael Scollay       mailto:michael.scollay at telstra.com.au

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Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 12:07:17 +1100
From: Michael Scollay 
Organization: Telstra Strategy & Research
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To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: Re: aussie-weather: Latest Sydney WX
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Paul Graham wrote:
> 
> Hello everyone,
>           Early this morning another line of thunderstorms moved through the
> Sydney region.   I observed lightning at 3am at which time it started
> raining here in N. Ryde.  Not much wind though - just very heavy rain -
> and for a time quite a bit of lightning - flashes every few seconds for
> some time - most intense around 3:10am here.  By 3:40am it had pretty much
> finished.
>         Currently 5:20am and lightning is still observable from here in
> Sydney (not sure where though).  Pressure is 998 Hpa and falling, still
> quite warm - I guess the front hasn't moved through yet - but it must be
> close now...

How can you be so cheery about this? That wretched storm work me up
and our 6mth-old baby who thought that his stomach was empty. I
finally convinced him that the dummy and sleep was the only option. I
was not impressed since I had to get up at 5:40am to catch yet another
plane to Melbourne...On the storm-side of things, it was an impressive
display but I've got no film in the camera!

Michael Scollay       mailto:michael.scollay at telstra.com.au

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Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 12:18:33 +1100
From: Michael Scollay 
Organization: Telstra Strategy & Research
X-Accept-Language: en
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: Re: aussie-weather: Cold Outbreak in Melbourne, one coldest ever
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
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Nick Sykes wrote:
> 
> The weather in Melbourne this morning is amazing, the temp is only 5 C, with
> a fresh south westerly, a pool of very cold air, evident on the latest sat
> pics is just south of Melbourne and will move over the city during the next
> 6 hours...

When I boarded a Qantas flight at 0650 AEST yesterday (Tuesday
27/10/1998), I was wearing the lovely heavy jumper. The looks I got
were amazing. "Nice jumper, do you think you really need it?" etc.
"Yes", I replied, "I think it's going the be really cold in Melbourne
today." Most disbelieved until the pilot announced on approach to
Melbourne that the temperature was +4 C -only-. There were oohs and
ahhs from all around the aircraft because most were dressed in summer
suits:-)

On the weather-side of things, I got the feeling from in-flight
monitor that this cold outbreak was largely confined to the lower
7,000m or so Up around 11,000m, the temperature did not vary much from
just outside Sydney to Melbourne. 

Do the soundings support an inversion associated with this cold
outbreak?

Michael Scollay       mailto:michael.scollay at telstra.com.au

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From: Blair Trewin 
Subject: aussie-weather: Late-season record in Canberra
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com (Aussie Weather)
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 13:57:22 +1100 (EST)
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Canberra had its coldest night on record so late in the season 
last night. I don't have an exact minimum yet (-2 rounded) but
do have an exact 0600 temperature (-1.9); previous lowest so
late in spring was -1.8. 

I haven't checked other stations thoroughly yet (and my web page 
is down which makes it harder) but suspect similar records have 
been set at numerous other sites. October records appear to have
been set at Wagga (-2, previously -1.1) and Nhill (-3, previously
-2.2) among others, although in Nhill's case this is only on the
post-1957 digital record (I do have the pre-1957 data but haven't
checked it yet). 

Will try to do a thorough survey over the next day or so (especially
as some places may well have another go tonight).

Blair Trewin

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From: Paul_Mossman at agd.nsw.gov.au
X-Lotus-Fromdomain: NSW_AG
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 15:00:05 +1000
Subject: aussie-weather: Storm Chasing, Current Obs. & Any developments.
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Howdy all! Still like to hear from anyone wishing to go chasing. Details
will be finalised when numbers are confirmed but there are a number of
alternatives:

1. Northern NSW / SW QLD / SE QLD
2. Nth QLD / W QLD
3. Northern Territory.

Either taking own vehicles or hiring a car (with unlimited kms) and
splitting the difference. Think about it people and get back soon hey!

2. We have some great pyro cumulus forming at the front!! A big fire south
of Taree, and cumulus forming at the top of the smoke. Now from my reading,
these clouds are great for storm development.......and sometimes
unexpectedly! So heres hoping.

3. There sems top be more development out to sea then yesterday (after
reading about waterpsouts & stuff.)  I was wondering whether the East Coast
Low may be forming?? Cool SE blowing here at the moment, nice & moist.

Hows everyone elses weather going??


paul.

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X-Originating-Ip: [203.37.41.20]
From: "Patrick Tobin" 
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: aussie-weather: Yesterday's Cold Outbreak
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 20:06:45 PST
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
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Thanks all for last nights discussion (and pictures!!) re storms off 
Sydney during cold outbreaks.

The finale of the cold outbreak for Canberra was an overnight minimum of 
MINUS 2 which is 8 below average. Traces of frost rapidly disappeared 
this morning in the strong sun of this time of year. We have now reached 
the dizzy heights of 15.

Despite the impressive cells and cloudscape from yesterday, there was 
minimal precipitation in this region. No snow was visible this morning 
on the ranges that can be seen from Canberra (up to 1600m) - generally 
we need a couple of cm for snow on the ranges to be visible in Canberra. 
It is not unusual for snow to be visible from Canberra as late as 
November.

A few scattered Cu (some with large horizontal development and dark 
bases) around this afternoon especially over the ranges but these are 
well capped. This is not surprising given the very strong inversion 
shown in the Wagga sounding from this morning.  By the way, yesterdays 
Wagga sounding had the inversion at around 500mb (5400m).

I guess it will be quiet for the next couple of days until the new 
upstream trough arrives (with varying outcomes suggested by the 
different models.) NOGAPS continues to offer an interesting weekend for 
SE NSW.

Patrick from Canberra


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

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From: "Jane ONeill" 
To: "Aussie Weather" 
Subject: aussie-weather: Melbourne current
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 15:14:16 +1100
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Melbourne airport:     1Cu / 4Sc     13.5degr     DP 0.5degr     Bar:1021.9
Melburne city:    13.6degr    DP 3.7degr     Bar: 1022.9
Laverton:     1Cu / 3Sc     13.5degr     DP 03.5     Bar: 1022
Beautiful sunny day, light wind after some earlier TCu developing quickly
and dying just as quickly to the NE.

Jane

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Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 15:47:38 +1100
From: Michael Scollay 
Organization: Telstra Strategy & Research
X-Accept-Language: en
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: Re: aussie-weather: Yesterday's Cold Outbreak
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com

Patrick Tobin wrote:
> 
> ... No snow was visible this morning on the ranges that can be seen 
> from Canberra (up to 1600m) - generally we need a couple of cm for 
> snow on the ranges to be visible in Canberra. It is not unusual for 
> snow to be visible from Canberra as late as November.

There wasn't much precipitable water in this air mass that moved over
the Snowys towards Canberra. Pity for snow on the Brindabellas:-( In
recent history, I know of at least 2 late season snowfalls of
significance (>40cm) at Perisher Valley. One 50cm fall threatened to
lock us in the Technology Ski Lodge for 4 days from early November,
1994 (Our families and friends loved it!) and also another group
(including my wife's uncle) roughly the same time in 1993. In 1993,
the National Parks cleared the trail up to the lodge to get the
stranded cars out 5 days after the "dump" which was estimated to be
about 80cm of soft snow!

Check out http://www.perisherblue.com.au/report/bluecow.html for the
11am pic of the snow that fell yesterday. This morning, there was a
total cover of perhaps 5cm with up to 12cm falling on the main range
near Thredbo. By 11am most of the snow in direct sun had melted away.

> ...
> A few scattered Cu (some with large horizontal development and dark
> bases) around this afternoon especially over the ranges but these are
> well capped. This is not surprising given the very strong inversion
> shown in the Wagga sounding from this morning.  By the way, yesterdays
> Wagga sounding had the inversion at around 500mb (5400m).

I thought that was the case from my ascent/decent Sydney/Melbourne
flight yesterday. Please see previous mail.

> ...

Michael Scollay       mailto:michael.scollay at telstra.com.au

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From: Blair Trewin 
Subject: aussie-weather: October records
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com (Aussie Weather)
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 17:07:40 +1100 (EST)
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Not as many October records as I thought there might have been;
of those stations with a reasonable record length:

Wagga		-2.0 (rounded?) (previously -1.1)
Nhill		-2.5 (previously -2.2)
Armidale	-2.4 (previously -2.2, only a few days old - but
		Armidale has had a big site change earlier this
		year and the new site is probably ~2 degrees colder
		than the old one under these conditions)

I've only checked below-zero minima above. 

When it comes to late-season records we're on much more promising
ground. In addition to the above (these are mostly rounded):

Bourke		5 (previously 6.0)*
Cabramurra	-6.0 (-5.1)
Deniliquin (poss) 2 (2.1)
Dubbo		1 (3.0)
Gunnedah SC	4 (5.1)
Richmond NSW	3 (5.4)
Scone SC	3 (3.7)
Walgett		1 (5.7)*
Wyalong		2 (2.5)
Mildura		3 (3.6)
Swan Hill	1 (2.4)*
Canberra	-2 (-1.8)

* site changes may have had an impact on these

Blair Trewin

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Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 18:19:55 +1100 (EST)
From: Paul Graham 
To: Aussie Weather 
Subject: aussie-weather: Mailing List...
Reply-Receipt: pgraham1 at extro.ucc.su.oz.au
Reply-Read: pgraham1 at mail.usyd.edu.au
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
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Hi everyone,
	The mailing list is getting pretty busy now: I just deleted around
400 messages and saved nearly 200 others.  Please remember to try and put
relevant subject headings on mail as it makes sorting much easier. 
Sometimes it's easy to reply to a message and forget to change the subject
heading if you are talking about something completely different - I've
done this a few times.
	Cheers,
		Paul.
----------------------------
Paul Graham
m3052695 at hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au
----------------------------

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From: "paulmoss" 
To: 
Subject: aussie-weather: Weather chat!!
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 19:14:24 +1100
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Reminder everyone that weather chat is on tonight!! Cant wait!!

Paul.

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Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 20:07:29 +1100
Subject: Re: aussie-weather: Weather chat!!
From: "Mark Hardy" 
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
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Paul, where is the weather chat?
----------
>From: "paulmoss" 
>To: 
>Subject: aussie-weather: Weather chat!!
>Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 19:14
>

>Reminder everyone that weather chat is on tonight!! Cant wait!!
>
>Paul.

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From: "paulmoss" 
To: 
Subject: aussie-weather: IRC Chat Meeting.
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 20:28:32 +1100
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Mark, these are the details!!See you there!!


Paul.


-----Original Message-----
From: Jacob 
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com 
Date: Tuesday, 27 October 1998 4:43 PM
Subject: aussie-weather: IRC meeting times with Daylight Saving


>
>Hi all,
>
>With daylight saving now in force in most states, there will be new
>starting time changes for some states for our weekly IRC weather chat each
>Wednesday night, but for most states the meeting time will be the same.
>
>The meeting times for each state are:
>
>9:00pm EDT - NSW, VIC, ACT, TAS
>8:30pm CDT - SA
>8:00pm EST - QLD
>7:30pm CST - NT
>6:00pm WST - WA
>10am GMT
>
>So basicly, the states that don't go on daylight saving will start an hour
>earlier.
>
>It's stupid how we have 5 timezones during the summer, I think its about
>time each state gives the daylight saving powers to the federal government,
>either the whole nation should go on daylight saving, or no one should.
>
>I personally would love WA to go on daylight saving.
>
>If you haven't tried IRC yet on undernet #weather, you can either download
>an IRC client, such as mIRC at:
>
>http://www.mirc.co.uk/
>
>or to make it easier you can chat via the web at:
>
>http://www.iinet.net.au/~jacob/chat.html
>
>Jacob

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X-Sender: mbath at ozemail.com.au
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 23:19:28 +1100
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
From: Michael Bath 
Subject: aussie-weather: More info from Brisbane storm 13/10
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Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com

>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>It was a fairly warm day in brisbane that day with the burea forcasting
storms in the afternoon.
>I checked the internet for warnings and there was a severe storm warning
issued at about 12:30 pm.
>I work on the 11th floor of a government building and had a 360 Deg
Uninterupted view. At 2 pm i could see big development from the south -
east near the gold coast
>to the north west to the ranges. As the storms approached i did not think
they would be severe as i could see daylight underneath the base clouds.
But incredibly as i was working someone asked if i had seen the storms.
>This was only 20 minutes after my last ob. WOW - Icould not believe what i
was looking at. 2 huge revolving base clouds with no daylight to be seen
thru them. This storm only took 20 mins to develop into a severe ( i should
say dangerous storm)
>because the bases was only slightly revolving. I went out to look towards
the north - what i saw was something out of a usa tornado video clip.
>There were explosions every where, not from lightning but from power poles
being blown over. 1 lightning hit to the building and tables and chairs
were floating mid air on out level agaisnt a wall thru out the duration of
the storm.
>I drove home from the city to clayfield. No traffic lights and damage very
where. Got home and saw 4 premises with roofs missing. We didn't get power
back for 2 days as the lines had to be totally rebuild.
>Not as bad as the 85 hail storm, but the damage was very widespread.
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>(date)  october 1998
>(location)  Brisbane /Northern suburbs
>(email)  mikepmaher at hotmail.com
>(name)  Michael Peter Maher

*==========================================================*
 Michael Bath  Oakhurst, Sydney   mbath at ozemail.com.au
                 Australian Severe Weather
       http://australiansevereweather.simplenet.com/
*==========================================================*

Document: 981028.htm
Updated: 29th October, 1998

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