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Storm News
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Australian Weather Mailing List Archives: Monday, 30 August 1999 |
From Subject
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001 Dean S [deansgar at alphalink.com.au] Tornado??? Fairfield West
002 Ira Fehlberg [jra at upnaway.com] Mini Tornados & cold air funnels
003 Ira Fehlberg [jra at upnaway.com] Fremantle F0 Tornado
004 Jacob [jacob at iinet.net.au] Mini Tornado
005 Jacob [jacob at iinet.net.au] FW: Mini Tornados & cold air funnels
006 Lindsay [writer at lisp.com.au] I am finally online...again!
007 Lindsay [writer at lisp.com.au] Sydney chase
008 Lindsay [writer at lisp.com.au] Mildura radar & duststorms...
009 John Woodbridge [jrw at pixelcom.net] Mini Tornados & cold air funnels
010 John Woodbridge [jrw at pixelcom.net] Possible tornado damage assessment
011 "Dr David Jones" [d.jones at bom.gov.au] (no subject)
012 Anthony Cornelius [cyclone at flatrate.net.au] Re:
013 Tom Johnstone [Iain.Johnstone at pse.unige.ch] Mini Tornados & cold air funnels
014 Paul Yole [vortex at wwdg.com] Sydney's Tornado????
015 Blair Trewin [blair at met.Unimelb.EDU.AU] Grumpy pills...
016 Blair Trewin [blair at met.Unimelb.EDU.AU] Casterton Tornado
017 Michael Fewings [mike at strikeone.com.au] Grumpy pills...
018 Anthony Cornelius [cyclone at flatrate.net.au] Sydney's Tornado????
019 Chas & Helen Osborn [hosborn at tassie.net.au] Strahan Weather
020 "W.A. (Bill) Webb" [billwebb at tpgi.com.au] Re: Dust devils - willy willys - and.......
021 Chas & Helen Osborn [hosborn at tassie.net.au] Strahan Weather
022 Blair Trewin [blair at met.Unimelb.EDU.AU] Very dry winter in eastern Tasmania
023 John Woodbridge [jrw at pixelcom.net] That word 'mini'
024 "Paul Graham" [v_notch at hotmail.com] 1961 air crash???
025 Michael Scollay [michael.scollay at telstra.com. Synoptic Circulation of Recent Low...
026 "Andrew Miskelly" [amiskelly at ozemail.com.au] That word 'mini'
027 "Paul Graham" [v_notch at hotmail.com] Fuijita Wind Scale in Media Reporting...
028 Blair Trewin [blair at met.Unimelb.EDU.AU] 1961 air crash???
029 "Michael Thompson" [michaelt at ozemail.com.au] Sydney Rain Saturday Night
030 "Michael Thompson" [michaelt at ozemail.com.au] That word 'mini'
031 Anthony Cornelius [cyclone at flatrate.net.au] Synoptic Circulation of Recent Low...
032 Paul Miracki [pmiracki at powerup.com.au] Hello??
033 Anthony Cornelius [cyclone at flatrate.net.au] That word 'mini'
034 Jimmy Deguara [jdeguara at ihug.com.au] Tornado or downburst
035 "Jane ONeill" [cadence at rubix.net.au] Synoptic Circulation of Recent Low...
036 Don White [donwhite at ozemail.com.au] Synoptic Circulation of Recent Low...
037 David Croan [bustchase at yahoo.com] That word 'mini'
038 Don White [donwhite at ozemail.com.au] 1961 air crash???
039 "Michael Thompson" [michaelt at ozemail.com.au] Hello??
040 "Michael Thompson" [michaelt at ozemail.com.au] Tornado or downburst
041 "Jane ONeill" [cadence at rubix.net.au] MSC update
042 Anthony Cornelius [cyclone at flatrate.net.au] Tornado or downburst
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001
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 23:55:08 +1100
From: Dean S [deansgar at alphalink.com.au]
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To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Tornado??? Fairfield West
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Hi all. Deano here. Concerning the damage to Fairfield, is this a repeat
of Fremantle with a microburst causing damage and then a tornado
occuring a short time later?
Paul Graham wrote:
>
> Channel 9 are reporting it as a ....Mini-tornado
> An interview with a fire-brigade officer is reporting as a micro-burst on
> the ABC
>
> >From: Jimmy Deguara
> >Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
> >To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
> >Subject: aus-wx: Tornado??? Fairfield West
> >Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 09:35:53 +1000
> >
> >I just got a call from Matt Smith that he heard on the radio that just
> >after 2am this morning (2:18am) there was a tornado?? that left a narrow
> >path of damage to about 25 houses or so. Details are sketchy but as more
> >information unfolds, we will try and post to the list.
> >
> >The synoptic conditions is unusual as it is more of the NE airstream type
> >of weather. There were some localised large cumulus and cumulonimbus during
> >the night with rain and local heavy rain. I would say that the cells
> >developed over the land in the unstable airstream here and there as
> >observed on the radar.
> >
> >Jimmy Deguara
> >
>
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> >message.
>
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002
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Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 09:41:43 +0800
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
From: Ira Fehlberg [jra at upnaway.com]
Subject: RE: aus-wx: Mini Tornados & cold air funnels
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
In Answer to Johns email.....
btw Sorry all these posts have taken so long, I was away down south for the
weekend to get some much needed time in the green room. :)
At 23:35 28/08/99 +1000, you wrote:
>Hi Andrew and others,
>
>>From my years in Perth, the term 'cock-eyed bob' was generally used in the
>media to describe a severe winter storm cell causing F0..F2 damage along a
>narrow path. Most definitely a vortex associated with a thunderstorm cell,
>however, I wouldn't be surprised if the term has been incorrectly applied
>from time to time to refer to damaging local squalls (i.e., straight
>winds).
I'd confidently say that this doesnt happen anymore, tho it would have
happened in the past for sure the 80's in the data base are terrible.
However since Ive been around (approx 1990 here in Perth) Ive been to look
at every tornado/downdraught event in the SW. Its hard to pick em sometimes
as both can be decieving but you get to know. Along with Barrys help Id say
we get em all right now. We may miss some events that go unseen but of
those that are reported Im confident we get them right. If anything myself
and Barry always err on the side of downdraft untill we are otherwise
convienced. The evidence must be there to prove it for me.
>Known also as "coldies", some interesting facts present themselves, these
>events generally occur in wintertime associated with frontal activity or
>post frontal activity in southern ocean depressions. The weather is
>usually very squally with scattered storm cells. The storms are not severe
>electrically as we in the Eastern States are accustomed to and have nothing
>like the same vertical development. They are generally fast moving in
>conditions where there are strong westerly winds with high levels of shear
>and there is no large change in wind direction during the passage of these
>storm cells (i.e., < 45 degrees). They can also occur in tropical
>depressions where similar high wind & high shear conditions exist (e.g.,
>near Noosa QLD last Feb) and are known to occur in the couldbands
>surrounding a tropical cyclones and hurricanes.
>
>These conditions seem to be quite different to those we would normally
>associate a Tornado with, i.e., violent supercell thunderstorms associated
>with summertime troughs or 'dry lines', and also rather different to those
>we would normally associate a waterspout with, i.e., a non-storm bank of
>slowly drifting cumulus. While 'coldies' do tend to occur close the coast,
>I do no believe that they are merely waterspouts. Personally I think that
>the conditions and event are sufficiently unique that they should have
>their own name (I guess they have).
They are generally referred to as cold air funnels, the word mini seems to
be associated with any small tornado not just winter types and is an
incorrect term. Also the term Landspout is defined as tornadoes that form
in non-supercell/non-severe storms. A Landspout to me is from cloud base to
ground on a "fair weather" or non-severe day. However the true definition
of cold air funnels is funnels that form in in cool air behind a frontal
system associated with thunderless cumulus congestus or cumulonimbus. The
tornadoes we get here in winter are usually in the storms in the cold pool
behind the front and whilst they are'nt as electrically active as summer
they have thunder dont worry about that. They move so fast that the
activity often seems brief. Ask any Perth resident. So cold air funnels
seems to me an incorrect term as well. I agree whole-heartedly with what
Anthony said, its either a tornado or it isnt. Cold air funnels are funnels
on or in the front that dont touch down. Radek has 5 excellent pics of some
that he saw of the coast here about a six weeks ago (they are slides but he
is getting prints of em done) I also have a few pics of cool air funnels,
unfortunatly a picture of a winter tornado has avoided me thus far. While
most winter naders here are weak this is the case with summer tornadoes
anyway. We get our strong ones in winter as well. A couple that spring to
mind, 1955 Collie F-3/F-4?? 300m x 30k, late 80's Boyup Brook 84k track (
yes thats right 84k's) F-2, and more recently a 1995 winter event that
produced 3 F-2's on the same day one with a 70k track. They were all about
300k's from the coast. September 93 saw two F-3's on the ground in down
town Mandurah at the same time. All these are BOM confirmed and not small
events in anyones language.
Ira Fehlberg
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003
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Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 09:42:19 +0800
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
From: Ira Fehlberg [jra at upnaway.com]
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Fremantle F0 Tornado
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
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Hi there all, well ive been down to look at the damage and this is the
official word, it was a tornado. Its no downdraft thats for sure. Ive seen
enough now to know the difference. The aparment buliding damage is quite
extensive but several things must be taken into account, 1. its 8 storys
high and easy for the wind to get under it and two it has a flat roof, High
speed winds passing over a flat surface will draw the surface up, actually
its how planes fly. Put a piece of paper on a desk and blow over the top of
it, you'll see what i mean. Ive seen damage like this many times before. In
the 96 South Perth tornado the was only one block of flats and one house on
Mill Point rd with flat roofs and you can guess what happend. The roofs
always look like they have been peeled open when its a tornado as opposed
to crushed. So anway this event was definatley a nader, most of damage
doesnt really start till well after the apartment block. Not many trees
damaged at all and some homes did have roof damage along a 7k path. Looks
like an F-0 nader that may have been skipping, either that or it was a very
weak F-0. I spoke with the people at thet severe weather section at the BOM
as Barry is away in Sydney and they confirmed it, with damage like this
along a narrow path you need to see strong winds above the surafce to mix
in with the downdraft. The BOM confirmed the lack of strong winds. So they
have recorded it as a tornado as well. Hope that clears it up for you all!!
Ira Fehlberg
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004
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Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 01:54:31 +0800
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
From: Jacob [jacob at iinet.net.au]
Subject: RE: aus-wx: Mini Tornado
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
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At 11:35 28/08/99 +1000, you wrote:
>
>Curiously, despite the fact that they are relatively frequent in certain
>parts of Australia, particularly SW WA, no photo exists as far as I am
>aware.
>
There is video footage of a tornado that formed in South Australia with a
cold front during winter. It was about 4 years ago, it was on the news at
the time.
Jacob
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005
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Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 01:49:34 +0800
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
From: Jacob [jacob at iinet.net.au]
Subject: aus-wx: FW: Mini Tornados & cold air funnels
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
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This message bounced. With David away for the weekend and unable to approve
it untill later, I''ll forward it to the list.
Tom: Make sure the email address you use to the list is the same email
address that you used to subscribed to the list, we've had bounced messages
from you before because of that.
>
>At 09:41 29/08/99 +0800, Ira wrote:
>>300k's from the coast. September 93 saw two F-3's on the ground in down
>>town Mandurah at the same time. All these are BOM confirmed and not small
>>events in anyones language.
>
>I think it was a bit earlier than 1993 - maybe 1989 or 1990 - when myself
>and a friend were fishing on the old Mandurah bridge when the weather very
>quickly started to get bad. This would have been in the winter sometime. A
>front/thunderstorm moved in very quickly from off the ocean and there was
>quite a bit of gusty wind and thunder. We decided to leave and go back to
>the beach house. We were driving back through Halls Head when suddenly we
>noticed wrecked houses everywhere. Seems that a couple of minutes before,
>some sort of strong wind event ripped through a zone about 50 m wide and
>maybe 150-250 m long. We were pretty much the first on the scene, apart
>from the people who we just starting the emerge from their houses - most of
>them pretty shaken up I remember. One woman was freaking out because her
>young boy had just left the house with his boogy board to go to the beach
>(turn out he was okay). We helped a number of people out of their houses
>and had a good look around. Some house roofs were blown off, some walls
>down. I reckon a couple of houses probably needed rebuilding, or at least
>major structural work. We saw solid reinforced brick pillars (must weigh
>quite a bit) from a patio lying on top of a roof. These were modern brick
>and tile houses in a new housing estate.
>
>The surprising thing about the scene was how well defined the damage area
>was. It seemed to lie in a NW-SE path (or the reverse direction I suppose).
>That made me think of a tornado - a description that many of the dazed home
>occupants seemed willing to believe. My friend, who has had a beach house
>in the area for many years, thought that it was a waterspout that came in
>off the ocean - he's seen many waterspouts in the area before.
>
>Anyway, I've always wandered what it was. Sorry if this is a bit of a
>blah-blah, but perhaps someone on the list (Ira?) can tell me what we
>missed witnessing first-hand by about 1-2 minutes....
>
>Tom
>--------------------------------------------------------------------
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006
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 08:22:13 -0700
From: Lindsay [writer at lisp.com.au]
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To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: Re: aus-wx: I am finally online...again!
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Good to have you back :-)
About 100 of those messages are probably mine. You can delete them,
nothing to revelationary in my ones :-)
Lindsay P.
Manda . M wrote:
>
> Hello everyone ,
> Manda from Bowen here. My puter seemed to have a
> ...hmmm how do you put it nicely grrrr.It went bonkers and it ended up in
> hospital.So after around three months of testing and waiting and mucking
> about,i am back. So much catching up to do ,err around 3000 msgs + to
> read.I had a quick scan .So i read a little on the shirts they sound great
> .anyway ..its great to be back up and running again..........looking forward
> to reading all the news and goss!!
> Be Reading Ya
> Manda.....
>
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007
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 08:33:32 -0700
From: Lindsay [writer at lisp.com.au]
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To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Sydney chase
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Yeah, I saw those ones. I was at Penrith at 1:45 and there was a nice
development to the east/nort east of me at this time. Lightning and
thunder and the cloud build up was really dark - looked alright for
august. Got a bit of rain at Penrith but not a lot.
Lindsay P.
Matt Smith wrote:
>
> Hi
>
> Jimmy and myself chased a small cell that went pink on radar around 2pm (i
> think!) near Rooty hill, it gave the odd strike and rumble of thunder
> before becomming just rain moving south and dying out, cured the SDS for a
> couple of days I think though :)
> We waited 30 minutes or so for more development, and we headed towards
> Richmond as a cell was gathering strength there, but it also died and we
> went to Macca's for some food and a chat, certainly not a wasted afternoon,
> but nothing compared to what North NSW and QLD have been getting the last 2
> days.
>
> Matthew Smith
>
> ASWA Committee Member
> ---------------------------------
> ---------Storm Reports and Photos:-----------
> ----- http://www.braenet.com.au/~disarm -----
> ---------------------------------
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008
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 08:24:08 -0700
From: Lindsay [writer at lisp.com.au]
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To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Mildura radar & duststorms...
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Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Interesting point Kevin,
God, did we see some doozies down there in the 80's during the droughts!
Huge dust storms.
Lindsay P.
Kevin Phyland wrote:
>
> Hi every1,
>
> Not that this can possibly explain any recent anomalies...but I'm thinking
> that duststorms (a not infrequent event around Mildura) would play merry
> hell with radar...
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> Kevin (in the 'hole')
>
> >From: Anthony Cornelius
> >Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
> >To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
> >Subject: Re: aus-wx: Mildura radar is dodgy
> >Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 09:17:08 +1000
> >
> >Hi All,
> >
> >Mark Dwyer wrote:
> >I can't be totally correct about this but i think there is a
> > > calibration error on the Mildura radar at the moment that is causing the
> >radar
> > > to over estimate some what.
> >
> >Radar's are very sensitive, ideally they need to be re-caliberated under
> >each conditions, as attenuation can differ greatly in some areas. Quite
> >often, what happens is that the beam shoots too high in the cloud, and
> >gets more precip then their actually is (this could be the case, if
> >Mildura at the beginning of winter was adjusted to suit high base
> >conditions). But, with this system now, I'm assuming that the bases are
> >much lower, and thus the beams are effectively shooting too high than
> >they should.
> >
> >There are a variety of other factors that play a part in this, such as
> >the presence of mountains etc.
> >
> >To my knowledge, radars in the US are caliberated each day to suit the
> >different conditions. My guess is that Mildura radar is not nearly
> >attended to this often.
> >
> >--
> >Anthony Cornelius
> >Queensland Coordinator of the Australian Severe Weather Association
> >(ASWA)
> >(07) 3390 4812
> >14 Kinsella St
> >Belmont, Brisbane
> >QLD, 4153
> >Please report severe thunderstorms on our Queensland severe thunderstorm
> >reporting line on (07) 3390 4218 or by going to our homepage at
> >http://www.severeweather.asn.au
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> > -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
>
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009
From: John Woodbridge [jrw at pixelcom.net]
To: "'aussie-weather at world.std.com'" [aussie-weather at world.std.com]
Subject: RE: aus-wx: Mini Tornados & cold air funnels
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 08:45:18 +1000
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Hi Ira,
So, are saying is that if a cold air funnel does touch down it then becomes a tornado by definition?
John.
>snip
They are generally referred to as cold air funnels, the word mini seems to
be associated with any small tornado not just winter types and is an
incorrect term. Also the term Landspout is defined as tornadoes that form
in non-supercell/non-severe storms. A Landspout to me is from cloud base to
ground on a "fair weather" or non-severe day. However the true definition
of cold air funnels is funnels that form in in cool air behind a frontal
system associated with thunderless cumulus congestus or cumulonimbus. The
tornadoes we get here in winter are usually in the storms in the cold pool
behind the front and whilst they are'nt as electrically active as summer
they have thunder dont worry about that. They move so fast that the
activity often seems brief. Ask any Perth resident. So cold air funnels
seems to me an incorrect term as well. I agree whole-heartedly with what
Anthony said, its either a tornado or it isnt. Cold air funnels are funnels
on or in the front that dont touch down.
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010
From: John Woodbridge [jrw at pixelcom.net]
To: "'aussie-weather at world.std.com'" [aussie-weather at world.std.com]
Subject: RE: aus-wx: Possible tornado damage assessment
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 08:48:43 +1000
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I'm prepared to go on record here and suggest that it is simply not
possible for a downburst or microburst to be only 30m wide. Just think
about the physics of the situation...
John.
>snip
All this was within the path of 30 or so
metres. Extremely confined. Absolutely nothing either side except for the
odd smaller road signs bent over. To me there seemed to be slight evidence
of convergence but again it is better seeing it from the air.
I was interviewed by channel 7. I told them about ASWA and in the
interview, I mentioned there is really no such thing as mini tornados.
It was either a tornado which involved convergence flowing in at the
surface or a microburst which was air falling towards the ground and
spreading outwards. The again asked me what they thought it was but I again
said I had to study the situation a little more.
So watch channel 7 tonight and see if it features ASWA!!!!
Jimmy Deguara
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011
From: "Dr David Jones" [d.jones at bom.gov.au]
To: "Aussie Weather (E-mail)" [aussie-weather at world.std.com]
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 09:30:33 +1000
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>Hi Mark, Kevin and others who'd like to chime in,
>
>Mark Hardy explained:
>#In the Australian article they did draw a line. Mini Tornadoes form in
cold
>#air thunderstorms, mostly winter and seemingly near the coast. (real)
>#Tornadoes form in hot humid air. They quoted Perth meteorologist Adrian
>#Redmond.
>
>[snip]
>
>I am dazed and confused. Is a "Mini Tornado" a tornado or is it a
different
>beast altogether? I am guessing a "cold air thunderstorm" is a storm
>with very cold air aloft and a steep lapse rate below that - would
>that equate a Mini Tornado with a cold air funnel? Is there a BOM person
>out there with all the answers?
Harald, my understanding is that while a "mini tornado" is a small scale
rapidly rotating
funnel associated with a convective cloud, what we would usually call a
tornado there are differences between these and the "classical" tornados -
related to the conditions in which they form, and also the mechanism by
which the vorticity becomes concentrated in the funnel. First, the "mini
tornado" (personally I dislike this name), typically occur near the coast,
usually in very unstable cold air streams, and often with mid/upper level
divergence - often near a right exit region of an upper jet. Quite clearly
the convective instability is significantly due to air/sea temperature
differences, and I suspect that very many of these systems are water spouts
which have crossed the coasts. There would also appear to be anecdotal
evidence that they occur more at night time, when oceanic convection is
destabilised by radiative cooling - hence the lack of photos. All these
characteristics of the environment - winter time, night time, over sea, and
in cold dry air mass stand in contrast with the environment typical of the
classic mid west tornado.
The other major difference appears to be in the generation of the funnel
vorticity. From my reading of the very limited literature, it would appear
that the vertical vorticity - the rotation in the x/y - plane significantly
owes its existence to the local tilting of vorticity in the x/z plane
(associated with vertical wind shear) through convective currents, possibly
enhanced by baroclinicly induced rotation. This appears to be in contrast to
the classic tornado, where funnels usually occur in association with a
pre-existing meso cyclone and the concentration of this vorticity appear to
play some role in tornado development - though to quote the storm expert Dr
William Cotton "A question which is still not answered is how the low-level
rotation amplifies to tornadic magnitudes". The three "mini tornado"
producing storms that I have seen on radar all lacked a rotating signature
(they moved broadly with the environmental flow).
Back to the name mini tornado, I would prefer this not be used, but it
appear to have become entrenched in the media, along with the mini cyclone.
Though.. I guess mini = small and tornado=tornado, so a mini tornado could =
small tornado, which is probably pretty close to the mark.
Cheers,
David.
________
Dr David Jones ( ___)
( )
Climate Analysis Section () )
National Climate Centre ( ) )
Bureau of Meteorology Fax : (+61 3) 9669 4678 ( )__ )
GPO Box 1289K, Melbourne Ph (work): (+61 3) 9669 4861 (________)_)
Victoria 3001, Australia Ph (home): (+61 3) 9898 4425 .... ..
email : D.Jones at bom.gov.au .... ..
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012
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 10:27:00 +1000
From: Anthony Cornelius [cyclone at flatrate.net.au]
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Hi David and all,
Dr David Jones wrote:
> Back to the name mini tornado, I would prefer this not be used, but it
> appear to have become entrenched in the media, along with the mini cyclone.
> Though.. I guess mini = small and tornado=tornado, so a mini tornado could =
> small tornado, which is probably pretty close to the mark.
I can agree with you in the meteorological sense, that a small tornado,
could be referred to as a "mini-tornado." However, the media cannot
discern between these two terms, and this is portrayed to the general
public. I have had many a debate with people that "Australia does not
get tornadoes, they only get mini-tornadoes" (!!!) Any tornado is
rarely referred to as a "tornado" - the media generally refer to any
thunderstorm that gives relatively severe wind damage, either a "mini
cyclone" or a "mini tornado." A prime example of this, were the two
tornadoes that occurred here on Nov 29, 1992. One was near Maryborough,
and was an F3, the other was at Bucca (near Bunderburg) and was rated at
"at least F4" - both of these events were referred to as "mini
tornadoes." And one begins to wonder, how much bloody bigger do they
(the media) want them! Even after Jimmy was interviewed on camera, that
"mini tornadoes do not exist" - they still went and called it a "mini
tornado" (!!!)
Again, this is will have serious ramifications in the future, if people
do not start realising that Australia does get tornadoes, and compared
to the rest of the word, a very high rate at that. Population centres
in Australia, are getting denser, or more numerous. It is only a matter
of time before a true 'disaster' happens. Something that could possibly
be scaled down, if people could comprehend the true threat of severe
thunderstorms (including tornadoes) - but this is a step away each time
an event is labelled incorrectly a "mini cyclone" or a "mini tornado."
--
Anthony Cornelius
Queensland Coordinator of the Australian Severe Weather Association
(ASWA)
(07) 3390 4812
14 Kinsella St
Belmont, Brisbane
QLD, 4153
Please report severe thunderstorms on our Queensland severe thunderstorm
reporting line on (07) 3390 4218 or by going to our homepage at
http://www.severeweather.asn.au
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013
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 16:51:52 +0200
From: Tom Johnstone [Iain.Johnstone at pse.unige.ch]
Subject: RE: aus-wx: Mini Tornados & cold air funnels
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At 09:41 29/08/99 +0800, Ira wrote:
>300k's from the coast. September 93 saw two F-3's on the ground in down
>town Mandurah at the same time. All these are BOM confirmed and not small
>events in anyones language.
I think it was a bit earlier than 1993 - maybe 1989 or 1990 - when myself
and a friend were fishing on the old Mandurah bridge when the weather very
quickly started to get bad. This would have been in the winter sometime. A
front/thunderstorm moved in very quickly from off the ocean and there was
quite a bit of gusty wind and thunder. We decided to leave and go back to
the beach house. We were driving back through Halls Head when suddenly we
noticed wrecked houses everywhere. Seems that a couple of minutes before,
some sort of strong wind event ripped through a zone about 50 m wide and
maybe 150-250 m long. We were pretty much the first on the scene, apart
from the people who we just starting the emerge from their houses - most of
them pretty shaken up I remember. One woman was freaking out because her
young boy had just left the house with his boogy board to go to the beach
(turn out he was okay). We helped a number of people out of their houses
and had a good look around. Some house roofs were blown off, some walls
down. I reckon a couple of houses probably needed rebuilding, or at least
major structural work. We saw solid reinforced brick pillars (must weigh
quite a bit) from a patio lying on top of a roof. These were modern brick
and tile houses in a new housing estate.
The surprising thing about the scene was how well defined the damage area
was. It seemed to lie in a NW-SE path (or the reverse direction I suppose).
That made me think of a tornado - a description that many of the dazed home
occupants seemed willing to believe. My friend, who has had a beach house
in the area for many years, thought that it was a waterspout that came in
off the ocean - he's seen many waterspouts in the area before.
Anyway, I've always wandered what it was. Sorry if this is a bit of a
blah-blah, but perhaps someone on the list (Ira?) can tell me what we
missed witnessing first-hand by about 1-2 minutes....
Tom
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014
From: Paul Yole [vortex at wwdg.com]
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 21:55:07 -0600
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: aus-wx: Sydney's Tornado????
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
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Hey all,
Watching the Ten News late last night and it said at first "a mini tornado". Yet during the report it was said that the BoM had called it a "Localised Downburst", so I think that the main problem is the media is trying too "Beef up" their reports to make it sound more important.
Also, has anyone noticed that with Hurricane Dennis off the US coast aslo has another Hurricane out to the East of it. Could these two systems be feeding of one or the other?
Paul Yole
Australian Severe Weather Member
Homepage: http://greenfield.fortunecity.com/dreams/238/
Email: vortex at wwdg.com
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015
From: Blair Trewin [blair at met.Unimelb.EDU.AU]
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Grumpy pills...
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 13:59:05 +1000 (EST)
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>
> Kevin
>
> In the Australian article they did draw a line. Mini Tornadoes form in cold
> air thunderstorms, mostly winter and seemingly near the coast. (real)
> Tornadoes form in hot humid air. They quoted Perth meteorologist Adrian
> Redmond.
>
> Ironically, the same article referred to these same storms as mini-cyclones.
> Further on, they went on to explain that tornadoes are very different to
> cyclones. It would appear we have a very confused journalist or
> meteorologist (or both).
>
One could make a valid distinction between cold air funnels of this
type and the type of tornado that forms in warm unstable air. The
Americans, however, call both types 'tornadoes'. (Cold air funnels
are quite common on and near the US West Coast in winter and early
spring - which shouldn't come as any surprise given the similarity
of the winter climates of California and south-western WA).
On another tack, my impression was that 'cock-eyed bob' was a rather
archaic term - this episode is the first time I can remember seeing
it in a current source. (Another one along these lines is 'willy-
willy', which was used in the early years of this century to refer to
tropical cyclones - these days, in as much as the term is used at all,
it refers to small dust whirls - and still occasionally finds its way
into foreign meteorology books).
Blair Trewin
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016
From: Blair Trewin [blair at met.Unimelb.EDU.AU]
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Casterton Tornado
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 14:05:19 +1000 (EST)
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>
> Dean,
> As a favour to Ray Kollmorgen of the Bureau, I am currently mapping
> their severe storm and tornado occurence data for Victoria in my spare time
> (I am a GIS geek by profession). I just had my first good look at the data
> last night and there is a very strong hotspot over Melbourne itself, but this
> is almost certainly biased by the much larger population density there. The
> other striking feature is a band of severe storms and tornadoes north of the
> Great Dividing Range. Its a little early to say for sure, but I believe this
> is not population controlled.
>
> I am still trying to find the best way to present the data, but when I do I
> will be able to do maps for different times of year, or even different values
> of the SOI index to see if the spatial distribution of storms changes.
>
> It would be great if we could publish these maps on an ASWA website, but we
> would need Ray's permission since it is his data.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Pete.
There's an older tornado climatology in existence by Allen (1979):
'A preliminary Australian tornado climatology' (Bureau of Meteorology
Technical Note 39). This found, not surprisingly, that the frequency
of reported tornadoes peaked around the major cities, especially
around Sydney - where the frequency per unit area was something like
10 times that in any rural area. I wouldn't take this disparity
seriously. Worth reading, though. Allen also details all tornado
deaths in Australia (41 up until the time of writing - 15 of them in
a 1961 plane crash).
Blair Trewin
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017
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 12:36:27 +0800
From: Michael Fewings [mike at strikeone.com.au]
Organization: Strike One Lightning Photos
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Blair and others,
>(Another one along these lines is 'willy-
>willy', which was used in the early years of this century to refer to
>tropical cyclones - these days, in as much as the term is used at all,
>it refers to small dust whirls - and still occasionally finds its way
>into foreign meteorology books).
Willy Willy is a name used extensively in Western Australia for describing dust
devils. In fact Dust devils is actually not really used in West Australia at all
for the rotating updraft of dust. Willy willy is the name given to them.
I have a feeling that the Eastern States don't think of them the same way.
Regards
--
Michael Fewings
Photographer of:
Strike One Lightning Photos
http://strikeone.com.au
Web Master of:
Australian Severe Weather Association Inc.
http://www.severeweather.asn.au
Blair Trewin wrote:
> >
> > Kevin
> >
> > In the Australian article they did draw a line. Mini Tornadoes form in cold
> > air thunderstorms, mostly winter and seemingly near the coast. (real)
> > Tornadoes form in hot humid air. They quoted Perth meteorologist Adrian
> > Redmond.
> >
> > Ironically, the same article referred to these same storms as mini-cyclones.
> > Further on, they went on to explain that tornadoes are very different to
> > cyclones. It would appear we have a very confused journalist or
> > meteorologist (or both).
> >
> One could make a valid distinction between cold air funnels of this
> type and the type of tornado that forms in warm unstable air. The
> Americans, however, call both types 'tornadoes'. (Cold air funnels
> are quite common on and near the US West Coast in winter and early
> spring - which shouldn't come as any surprise given the similarity
> of the winter climates of California and south-western WA).
>
> On another tack, my impression was that 'cock-eyed bob' was a rather
> archaic term - this episode is the first time I can remember seeing
> it in a current source. (Another one along these lines is 'willy-
> willy', which was used in the early years of this century to refer to
> tropical cyclones - these days, in as much as the term is used at all,
> it refers to small dust whirls - and still occasionally finds its way
> into foreign meteorology books).
>
> Blair Trewin
>
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018
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 14:40:43 +1000
From: Anthony Cornelius [cyclone at flatrate.net.au]
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Subject: Re: aus-wx: Sydney's Tornado????
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Hi Paul
> Also, has anyone noticed that with Hurricane Dennis off the US coast aslo has another Hurricane out to the East of it. Could these two systems be feeding of one or the other?
Hurricane Dennis and Hurricane Cindy are 22 degrees longitude away from
each other (eye to eye), I think this may be too far away for them to
feed off each other, although they are both around the same latitude.
Hurricane Cindy was an impressive Cat 4, with 140mph sustained winds
originally, but has now weakened to 105mph sustained due to the cooler
waters it has moved over.
It's funny sometimes, Dennis is at 32.5N...which would be about the
equivalent of Dennis being off Newcastle, yet we'd never even once think
about a TC hitting the Newcastle/Sydney area (although not impossible).
The Gulf Stream really does influence their wx!
--
Anthony Cornelius
Queensland Coordinator of the Australian Severe Weather Association
(ASWA)
(07) 3390 4812
14 Kinsella St
Belmont, Brisbane
QLD, 4153
Please report severe thunderstorms on our Queensland severe thunderstorm
reporting line on (07) 3390 4218 or by going to our homepage at
http://www.severeweather.asn.au
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019
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 15:40:01 +1000
From: Chas & Helen Osborn [hosborn at tassie.net.au]
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To: Australian Weather Mailing List [aussie-weather at world.std.com]
Subject: aus-wx: Strahan Weather
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Hello Everyone
A beautiful day here the sun is shining, a light breeze from the north
with a warm temperature of 16C.
Thank you to those who helped in my search for a world synoptic weather
map. The best I came up with was a world MSL pressure map not exactly
what I wanted but it is quick to come up and is good for world hot spots
at a glance.
http://lumahai.soest.hawaii.edu/gifs/models/GLOBAL/global_sfc_f000.gif
To those involved with the snow study I am happy to help with the
Tasmania part of it.
Chas
Strahan Tasmania
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020
From: "W.A. (Bill) Webb" [billwebb at tpgi.com.au]
To: [aussie-weather at world.std.com]
Subject: aus-wx: Re: Dust devils - willy willys - and.......
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 15:19:28 +1000
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>
>I have a feeling that the Eastern States don't think of them the same way.
>
>Regards
>--
>Michael Fewings
While growing up in the far south west of Qld, these were referred to as
whirly winds.
Got the northern edge of the rain from that little low - 8mm in my gauge,
and variable as usual around the district. Finch Hatton, west of Mackay, got
78mm in a thundery storm - this on Sunday night.
Bit early for storms up this way - maybe a sign of things to come.
Regards,
Bill
Proserpine
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021
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 16:59:00 +1000
From: Chas & Helen Osborn [hosborn at tassie.net.au]
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win98; I)
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Subject: Re: aus-wx: Strahan Weather
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Hello Everyone
The URL I just posted is the wrong one as that one is out of date!!!!. When I
find the right one I will let you know.
Chas
Chas & Helen Osborn wrote:
> Hello Everyone
>
> A beautiful day here the sun is shining, a light breeze from the north
> with a warm temperature of 16C.
> Thank you to those who helped in my search for a world synoptic weather
> map. The best I came up with was a world MSL pressure map not exactly
> what I wanted but it is quick to come up and is good for world hot spots
> at a glance.
>
> http://lumahai.soest.hawaii.edu/gifs/models/GLOBAL/global_sfc_f000.gif
>
> To those involved with the snow study I am happy to help with the
> Tasmania part of it.
> Chas
> Strahan Tasmania
>
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022
From: Blair Trewin [blair at met.Unimelb.EDU.AU]
Subject: aus-wx: Very dry winter in eastern Tasmania
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com (Aussie Weather)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 17:05:15 +1000 (EST)
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With one day of winter remaining (and no significant rain events
forecast), it appears to have been a very dry winter in eastern
Tasmania.
Hobart has had 74mm so far for the winter. This is the 4th lowest
total in the 118-year record (following 1957, 1940 and 1965). 1957
bottomed out at 58.1mm.
By the look of the maps on the web it looks like some stations on
the central eastern coast, around Swansea, may be down in the 50-60mm
range.
Blair Trewin
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023
From: John Woodbridge [jrw at pixelcom.net]
To: "'aussie-weather at world.std.com'" [aussie-weather at world.std.com]
Subject: RE: aus-wx: That word 'mini'
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 17:22:35 +1000
Organization: Pixel Components
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Just to be controversial...
The phrase "mini tornado" might be abhorrent to those of us with an
interest in meteorology as it is not a technically accurate term, but I
suggest that as a purely descriptive phrase, it conveys rather well the
extent of the phenomena to the general public. It evokes a mental image of
a small intense wind storm.
It could also be suggested, that the lack of public knowledge re the
occurrence of severe tornadoes in Australia is merely the result of poor
education and lack (to date) of large tornadoes causing major damage to
significant population centres, and not particularly related to use of the
phrase "mini tornado" by the media.
Moreover, it is an abuse of the English language to suggest that the the
adjective "mini" cannot be applied to the noun "tornado". Likewise
(picking up on a very old thread) the term "orographic" to "thunderstorm".
This is quite clear from the Oxford dictionary definitions.
I do think ASWA has a role to play in changing public and media perception
re occurence of tornadoes and precautions to take during severe weather. I
also would encourage the use of technically accurate terms where they
exist. However, to use the word "Tornado" by itself to describe the recent
Fairfield and Fremantle events is surely likely to lead to increased public
perception that Australian tornadoes are not severe... which is exactly the
opposite of what we want to achieve. So from that point of view, it might
be better to stick with mini-tornado or come up with a specific term to
distinguish cold air funnels.
Curiously, when a small winter time tornado caused some damage to
California's Disneyland a few years back, it was reported in the American
media as a "mini tornado".
John.
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024
X-Originating-IP: [210.84.5.136]
From: "Paul Graham" [v_notch at hotmail.com]
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: aus-wx: 1961 air crash???
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 00:56:17 PDT
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
I investigated the newspaper reports from the time but there was nothing to
suggest a tornado caused the crash. The aircraft simply disappeared so I'm
not sure when the tornado theory came into play.
However, the plane did take off into heavy thunderstorms and I heard
somewhere that roll clouds were reported, so perhaps this is where it
originated?
I know it is officially logged as having been caused by a tornado but I
don't know where the evidence for this came from..
- Paul G.
--Snip--
Allen also details all tornado
>deaths in Australia (41 up until the time of writing - 15 of them in
>a 1961 plane crash).
>
>Blair Trewin
______________________________________________________
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025
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 17:49:36 +1000
From: Michael Scollay [michael.scollay at telstra.com.au]
Organization: Telstra Strategy & Research
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4m)
X-Accept-Language: en
To: Aussie Weather [aussie-weather at world.std.com]
Subject: aus-wx: Synoptic Circulation of Recent Low...
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
The MSL synoptic charts over the last few days fail to agree with
the progress of an inland "low" clearly visible from satpics. While
I was meeting an MSL and gmsd archive request today, I animated the
sequences and to my surprise, the BoM's MSL synoptic charts showed
the "low" disappear into a trough but the gmsd satpics continued
to show a very clear circulation of cloud into a low that moved
from inland Victoria NNE to SE Queensland with circulation finally
stopping when the "low" was centred about SE Qld about 00Z on
29/08/1999 (Sunday). My only explanation is a mid-level low that
failed to show much at the low levels. At all other times that
I have compared synoptic charts to satpics, there has been very
close agreement between circulation patters and MSL pressure
systems. What do others think about this latest event?
Michael Scollay mailto:michael.scollay at telstra.com.au
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026
From: "Andrew Miskelly" [amiskelly at ozemail.com.au]
To: [aussie-weather at world.std.com]
Subject: Re: aus-wx: That word 'mini'
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 17:55:22 +1000
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
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It's probably just my nature but I think what is going to annoy me most,
once a severe tornado does hit a populated area is the sensationalism that
will follow. "Oh no, Australia got a tornado, we'd better have a think about
what would happen if 3 F5's hit the CBD at once..."
Andrew.
--
Andrew Miskelly
Illawarra/Southern Tablelands, NSW
amiskelly at ozemail.com.au
-----Original Message-----
From: John Woodbridge [jrw at pixelcom.net]
To: 'aussie-weather at world.std.com' [aussie-weather at world.std.com]
Date: Monday, 30 August 1999 17:44
Subject: RE: aus-wx: That word 'mini'
>Just to be controversial...
>
>The phrase "mini tornado" might be abhorrent to those of us with an
>interest in meteorology as it is not a technically accurate term, but I
>suggest that as a purely descriptive phrase, it conveys rather well the
>extent of the phenomena to the general public. It evokes a mental image of
>a small intense wind storm.
>
>It could also be suggested, that the lack of public knowledge re the
>occurrence of severe tornadoes in Australia is merely the result of poor
>education and lack (to date) of large tornadoes causing major damage to
>significant population centres, and not particularly related to use of the
>phrase "mini tornado" by the media.
>
>Moreover, it is an abuse of the English language to suggest that the the
>adjective "mini" cannot be applied to the noun "tornado". Likewise
>(picking up on a very old thread) the term "orographic" to "thunderstorm".
> This is quite clear from the Oxford dictionary definitions.
>
>I do think ASWA has a role to play in changing public and media perception
>re occurence of tornadoes and precautions to take during severe weather. I
>also would encourage the use of technically accurate terms where they
>exist. However, to use the word "Tornado" by itself to describe the recent
>Fairfield and Fremantle events is surely likely to lead to increased public
>perception that Australian tornadoes are not severe... which is exactly the
>opposite of what we want to achieve. So from that point of view, it might
>be better to stick with mini-tornado or come up with a specific term to
>distinguish cold air funnels.
>
>Curiously, when a small winter time tornado caused some damage to
>California's Disneyland a few years back, it was reported in the American
>media as a "mini tornado".
>
>John.
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
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> -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
>
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027
X-Originating-IP: [210.84.5.136]
From: "Paul Graham" [v_notch at hotmail.com]
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: aus-wx: Fuijita Wind Scale in Media Reporting...
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 01:10:11 PDT
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Hello everyone,
It would be good to see the Fuijita wind scale used by the media in the
reporting of localised wind storms. After all, whenever a tornado occurs in
the US we seem to hear it's Fuijita intensity. It may take some time for it
to become widely used, but once in place, there will be no more disputes
over how intense the storm was. It will be, in part, up to the Bureau of
Meteorology to implement such a scheme.
- Paul G.
______________________________________________________
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028
From: Blair Trewin [blair at met.Unimelb.EDU.AU]
Subject: Re: aus-wx: 1961 air crash???
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 18:24:36 +1000 (EST)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23]
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
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>
> I investigated the newspaper reports from the time but there was nothing to
> suggest a tornado caused the crash. The aircraft simply disappeared so I'm
> not sure when the tornado theory came into play.
> However, the plane did take off into heavy thunderstorms and I heard
> somewhere that roll clouds were reported, so perhaps this is where it
> originated?
> I know it is officially logged as having been caused by a tornado but I
> don't know where the evidence for this came from..
> - Paul G.
It's discussed in Allen's paper - will dig it up in the morning and
see what he had to say.
Blair
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029
From: "Michael Thompson" [michaelt at ozemail.com.au]
To: [aussie-weather at world.std.com]
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Sydney Rain Saturday Night
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 18:11:26 +1000
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
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I'm jealous we have a grand 2mm of rain over the last 76 hours here in
Southern Illawarra, it seemed every direction I looked except East had
showers.
Michael
----- Original Message -----
From: Susan Puddifer [susanpud at sydney.healey.com.au]
To: [aussie-weather at world.std.com]
Sent: Sunday, 29 August 1999 12:49
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Sydney Rain Saturday Night
> Susan from Balmain here.....
>
> Was driving home from North Bondi last night (Saturday) around 1.30am.
Left my
> friends house at that time - drove down into Rose Bay when the rain
started -
> just light rain - by the time I got to the Kings Cross tunnel on William
Street
> it was bucketing down very heavily - I have efficient wipers on my car,
blades
> are only a month old - by the time I drove out of the Kings X tunnel the
rain
> was torrential, my wipers werent
> handling the rain load and the road was covered in 4 inches (approx) of
water -
> had to pull up for around 20 mins and wait for the rain to ease - couldnt
see
> the lane markings - couldnt see more than 10 feet ahead of me. By the
time I
> got to Balmain it was barely spitting rain.
>
> I have driven in a lot of heavy rain but in my experience that was the
heaviest
> I have ever driven through.
>
> Anyone have any information on how much rain we got in that short burst
around
> the city - kings x area?
>
> Susan
>
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> -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
>
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030
From: "Michael Thompson" [michaelt at ozemail.com.au]
To: [aussie-weather at world.std.com]
Subject: Re: aus-wx: That word 'mini'
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 18:06:04 +1000
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
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Hi
I take your well written points, but my main objection is that the ' mini '
just promotes further that the public belief that we do not get ' real '
tornadoes. Your interesting Disneyland case aside a typical Australian '
mini ' tornado would in Oklahoma be called a F0 or F1, and there would be no
'mini' attached.
With regard to Fairfield and Fremantle I do agree that it must be certain
that a tornado or other vorticity has occurred, but once positive it should
called what it is. I disagree about people associating tornado with non
severe, in fact I think the opposite. One day it may not be our lifetime,
but I would wager good money that it would occur in the next 200 years a F3
or bigger is going to strike a capital city like Brisbane, Sydney or Perth
and kill people. It will then be another Sydney hailstorm media frenzy.
Media and citizens will ask questions like why haven't we been told before
that Australia gets tornadoes.
Just my views
Michael
>
> The phrase "mini tornado" might be abhorrent to those of us with an
> interest in meteorology as it is not a technically accurate term, but I
> suggest that as a purely descriptive phrase, it conveys rather well the
> extent of the phenomena to the general public. It evokes a mental image
of
> a small intense wind storm.
>
> It could also be suggested, that the lack of public knowledge re the
> occurrence of severe tornadoes in Australia is merely the result of poor
> education and lack (to date) of large tornadoes causing major damage to
> significant population centres, and not particularly related to use of the
> phrase "mini tornado" by the media.
>
> Moreover, it is an abuse of the English language to suggest that the the
> adjective "mini" cannot be applied to the noun "tornado". Likewise
> (picking up on a very old thread) the term "orographic" to "thunderstorm".
> This is quite clear from the Oxford dictionary definitions.
>
> I do think ASWA has a role to play in changing public and media perception
> re occurence of tornadoes and precautions to take during severe weather.
I
> also would encourage the use of technically accurate terms where they
> exist. However, to use the word "Tornado" by itself to describe the
recent
> Fairfield and Fremantle events is surely likely to lead to increased
public
> perception that Australian tornadoes are not severe... which is exactly
the
> opposite of what we want to achieve. So from that point of view, it might
> be better to stick with mini-tornado or come up with a specific term to
> distinguish cold air funnels.
>
> Curiously, when a small winter time tornado caused some damage to
> California's Disneyland a few years back, it was reported in the American
> media as a "mini tornado".
>
> John.
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
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> message.
> -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
>
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031
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 18:35:41 +1000
From: Anthony Cornelius [cyclone at flatrate.net.au]
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win98; I)
X-Accept-Language: en
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Synoptic Circulation of Recent Low...
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Hi Michael,
Michael Scollay wrote:
>
> The MSL synoptic charts over the last few days fail to agree with
> the progress of an inland "low" clearly visible from satpics. While
> I was meeting an MSL and gmsd archive request today, I animated the
> sequences and to my surprise, the BoM's MSL synoptic charts showed
> the "low" disappear into a trough but the gmsd satpics continued
> to show a very clear circulation of cloud into a low that moved
> from inland Victoria NNE to SE Queensland with circulation finally
> stopping when the "low" was centred about SE Qld about 00Z on
> 29/08/1999 (Sunday). My only explanation is a mid-level low that
> failed to show much at the low levels. At all other times that
> I have compared synoptic charts to satpics, there has been very
> close agreement between circulation patters and MSL pressure
> systems. What do others think about this latest event?
I noticed the same thing when I was looking at some of the sat pics and
MSL charts. Curious, I looked at AVN raw data maps of the event, and
saw that the "true" circulation (ie, fully enclosed circle) did not
commence until 700mb. I didn't not get a reading below 1019 during the
entire episode! Had a nice surface low formed, and maintained itself,
we would have seen a very different (and perhaps dangerous) scenario. I
am open to suggestions of why the surface low was not very pronounced.
--
Anthony Cornelius
Queensland Coordinator of the Australian Severe Weather Association
(ASWA)
(07) 3390 4812
14 Kinsella St
Belmont, Brisbane
QLD, 4153
Please report severe thunderstorms on our Queensland severe thunderstorm
reporting line on (07) 3390 4218 or by going to our homepage at
http://www.severeweather.asn.au
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032
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 19:12:48 +1000
From: Paul Miracki [pmiracki at powerup.com.au]
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I)
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: aus-wx: Hello??
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
hello? I'm new around here.. Just came to say that Perisher valley had
a max of 13�C today, that's 10�C above their August mean. The August
record is 14�C for Perisher and the forecast is for 14�C tommorow there.
Mt crackenback at around 2000 metres had 9.7�C today and the August
record is 10.5�C. The forecast for tommorow there is for 10�C so some
records might be broken??.
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033
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 19:12:30 +1000
From: Anthony Cornelius [cyclone at flatrate.net.au]
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win98; I)
X-Accept-Language: en
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: Re: aus-wx: That word 'mini'
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Hi Michael,
Michael Thompson wrote:
>One day it may not be our lifetime, but I would wager good money that it >would occur in the next 200 years a F3 or bigger is going to strike a >capital city like Brisbane, Sydney or Perth and kill people. It will then >be another Sydney hailstorm media frenzy.
The tornado that went through Brisbane on November 4, 1973 was rated an
F2, but there was in fact F3 damage (Jeff agreed to this) in some of the
path. In March this year, I found a building report on the tornado, and
it described fairly well in a few instances where "the entire roof, and
some of the walls were gone."
And, for some more interesting events, in 1935(?) a tornado went through
the southern suburbs of Brisbane. It lasted for 30 minutes, and it
reported that "some houses were wrecked, and others were razed." The
term "razed" means "completely destroyed." I'm not sure what type of
houses these were though. Sydney has also had an event of similar
nature, and people were injured by "flying bricks." This occured in the
1940's I believe.
--
Anthony Cornelius
Queensland Coordinator of the Australian Severe Weather Association
(ASWA)
(07) 3390 4812
14 Kinsella St
Belmont, Brisbane
QLD, 4153
Please report severe thunderstorms on our Queensland severe thunderstorm
reporting line on (07) 3390 4218 or by going to our homepage at
http://www.severeweather.asn.au
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034
X-Sender: jdeguara at pop.ihug.com.au
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 19:33:46 +1000
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
From: Jimmy Deguara [jdeguara at ihug.com.au]
Subject: aus-wx: Tornado or downburst
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Hi Jimmy here,
Well the show for ASWA did not happen. I did not appear on the channel 7
segment. But it seems one thing positive occurred: armed with the
information from my interview that mini-tornadoes don't exist, then they
mentioned obviously after talking to the Bureau that it was what is known
as a downburst where winds fall down and spread out, pretty much like my
description.
Now Andrew Treloar at the Bureau suggested that the soundings are
indicative of a downburst situation with dry air which I agree with but it
seems there is still evidence from the damage which could point wither
way... but we will have to accept that a downburst is what caused it since
there is no absolute evidence that there was a tornado. If the damage was
more severe along the path, I would have tended to the tornado theory.
Also, since I did not have time, I did not get time to survey other areas
as I thought that this was the only area based on media reports. It seems
like that apparently other areas were affected but they must have been a
few streets away. I did not see any significant damage in the area
immediately across the road I was dealing with...
I am interested in the details of the windows blown out theory suggested by
someone on the list... I know of one house where the glazier was fitting
windows.
Anyway, it was a good experience and sooner or later we will be able to
survey the damage of an observed tornado.
Jimmy Deguara
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035
From: "Jane ONeill" [cadence at rubix.net.au]
To: [aussie-weather at world.std.com]
Subject: RE: aus-wx: Synoptic Circulation of Recent Low...
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 20:51:32 +1000
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0
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The surface low and the upper low were never over each other. The less
pronounced surface low moved to the Mallacoota area in the far east of
Victoria, while the upper low (over Wagga at that same time) headed north,
then tracked NNW to Coonabarabran and Mungindi then NE. The aviation
forecasts in Victoria and NSW tracked it at least until it crossed the
Qld-NSW border. I'll put a series of images & a loop on the MSC site in the
next couple of days which shows its meanderings over a period of 3-5 days.
Surface pressures over NSW during this period were between 1018 and 1020hPa.
Jane ONeill
ASWA - Victoria
Email: cadence at rubix.net.au
Melbourne Storm Chasers http://www.rubix.net.au/~cadence
Australian Severe Weather Assocn (ASWA Inc.)
http://www.severeweather.asn.au
�
Anthony Cornelius
>I noticed the same thing when I was looking at some of the sat pics and
>MSL charts. Curious, I looked at AVN raw data maps of the event, and
>saw that the "true" circulation (ie, fully enclosed circle) did not
>commence until 700mb. I didn't not get a reading below 1019 during the
>entire episode! Had a nice surface low formed, and maintained itself,
>we would have seen a very different (and perhaps dangerous) scenario. I
>am open to suggestions of why the surface low was not very pronounced.
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036
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 21:36:31 +1000
From: Don White [donwhite at ozemail.com.au]
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I)
X-Accept-Language: en
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Synoptic Circulation of Recent Low...
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Michael,
There's no reason why the MSL pattern has to reflect the moisture
availability and circulation at mid levels.
Don W
Michael Scollay wrote:
>
> The MSL synoptic charts over the last few days fail to agree with
> the progress of an inland "low" clearly visible from satpics. While
> I was meeting an MSL and gmsd archive request today, I animated the
> sequences and to my surprise, the BoM's MSL synoptic charts showed
> the "low" disappear into a trough but the gmsd satpics continued
> to show a very clear circulation of cloud into a low that moved
> from inland Victoria NNE to SE Queensland with circulation finally
> stopping when the "low" was centred about SE Qld about 00Z on
> 29/08/1999 (Sunday). My only explanation is a mid-level low that
> failed to show much at the low levels. At all other times that
> I have compared synoptic charts to satpics, there has been very
> close agreement between circulation patters and MSL pressure
> systems. What do others think about this latest event?
>
> Michael Scollay mailto:michael.scollay at telstra.com.au
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
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037
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 04:32:39 -0700 (PDT)
From: David Croan [bustchase at yahoo.com]
Subject: RE: aus-wx: That word 'mini'
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
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--- John Woodbridge wrote:
> Just to be controversial...
>
> The phrase "mini tornado" might be abhorrent to
> those of us with an
> interest in meteorology as it is not a technically
> accurate term, but I
> suggest that as a purely descriptive phrase, it
> conveys rather well the
> extent of the phenomena to the general public.
Hi John and all,
That it does but of course over 60% of US tornadoes (ie F0 and F1)
should also be considered mini-tornadoes in that case. I agree that the
phrase is descriptive but it also quite effective in perpetuating the
myth that the real thing does not occur in Australia. I think 'weak
tornado' would be a much more accurate term, where appropriate,
although perhaps people who just lost their garden shed and back fence
might not agree. I'm quite sure that if the NSW capital city with 4
million people was Buladehlah and the Queensland capital was Bucca then
the existence of tornadoes throughout Australia would be acknowledged.
This is not the case so there is a useful role for ASWA in, gradually,
raising the awareness of the interested public; the violent tornadoes
which people see on the news are the exception rather than the rule -
but they still occur in the US and here as well.
It is worth pointing out that in 1857 American meteorologist Lorin
Blodget stated "there are no tornadoes on the great plains so far as
known".
Dave
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com
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038
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 21:45:23 +1000
From: Don White [donwhite at ozemail.com.au]
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I)
X-Accept-Language: en
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: Re: aus-wx: 1961 air crash???
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
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Paul...
I agree. The air crash I assume they are referring to occurred into
Botany Bay 1t 7.20 pm on 30 november 1961.
there's a detailed description of the meteorology of the event from page
233 to 246 in a book titled "Chiefly Fine - A Book of the Weather" by
A.J.Davis published by Halls Book Store P/L, Bourke St., Melbourne in
1968 - the book use to be in Macquarie University library. Of the
eyewitness reports quoted are:
1830: funnell cloud seen from Oatley in vicinity of botany Bay
1915: report from Ashfield area - clouds towards Mascot seen to be
swirling in one big circular motion on a horizontal plane
1915: from rockdale: Bank of cloud south of Botany Bay to burrerong with
funnell cloud beneath
1920-1930 from Sylvania - violent willy willy
1920: Gunnamatta Bay - severe squall, apparent downdraft with localised
circular motion
All the above are quotations from unamed observers.
The article is worth a read.
Don White
Paul Graham wrote:
>
> I investigated the newspaper reports from the time but there was nothing to
> suggest a tornado caused the crash. The aircraft simply disappeared so I'm
> not sure when the tornado theory came into play.
> However, the plane did take off into heavy thunderstorms and I heard
> somewhere that roll clouds were reported, so perhaps this is where it
> originated?
> I know it is officially logged as having been caused by a tornado but I
> don't know where the evidence for this came from..
> - Paul G.
>
> --Snip--
> Allen also details all tornado
> >deaths in Australia (41 up until the time of writing - 15 of them in
> >a 1961 plane crash).
> >
> >Blair Trewin
>
> ______________________________________________________
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039
From: "Michael Thompson" [michaelt at ozemail.com.au]
To: [aussie-weather at world.std.com]
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Hello??
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 22:32:30 +1000
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211
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Welcome to the list Paul. That sounds dreadful news for the ski buffs, of
whom we have a couple on the list.
Michael
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Miracki [pmiracki at powerup.com.au]
To: [aussie-weather at world.std.com]
Sent: Monday, 30 August 1999 19:12
Subject: aus-wx: Hello??
> hello? I'm new around here.. Just came to say that Perisher valley had
> a max of 13�C today, that's 10�C above their August mean. The August
> record is 14�C for Perisher and the forecast is for 14�C tommorow there.
> Mt crackenback at around 2000 metres had 9.7�C today and the August
> record is 10.5�C. The forecast for tommorow there is for 10�C so some
> records might be broken??.
>
>
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040
From: "Michael Thompson" [michaelt at ozemail.com.au]
To: [aussie-weather at world.std.com]
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Tornado or downburst
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 22:39:40 +1000
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I must admit that tornado was not really what I expected. Things just were
not tornadic, the jet stream was playing up near the border, we had rapidly
firing congestus, the whole movement was from the east. It just did not seem
likely, but then again neither did a downburst. I cannot help thinking that
there must be something to do with the extraordinary high overnight
temperatures, we are talking mid teens, I would not mind betting that there
may have been a cold dry air boundary somewhere more typical of a August
night, perhaps just a thousand feet up. But I am lost for theories, any
takers.
Michael
> Hi Jimmy here,
>
> Well the show for ASWA did not happen. I did not appear on the channel 7
> segment. But it seems one thing positive occurred: armed with the
> information from my interview that mini-tornadoes don't exist, then they
> mentioned obviously after talking to the Bureau that it was what is known
> as a downburst where winds fall down and spread out, pretty much like my
> description.
>
> Now Andrew Treloar at the Bureau suggested that the soundings are
> indicative of a downburst situation with dry air which I agree with but it
> seems there is still evidence from the damage which could point wither
> way... but we will have to accept that a downburst is what caused it since
> there is no absolute evidence that there was a tornado. If the damage was
> more severe along the path, I would have tended to the tornado theory.
> Also, since I did not have time, I did not get time to survey other areas
> as I thought that this was the only area based on media reports. It seems
> like that apparently other areas were affected but they must have been a
> few streets away. I did not see any significant damage in the area
> immediately across the road I was dealing with...
>
> I am interested in the details of the windows blown out theory suggested
by
> someone on the list... I know of one house where the glazier was fitting
> windows.
>
> Anyway, it was a good experience and sooner or later we will be able to
> survey the damage of an observed tornado.
>
> Jimmy Deguara
>
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041
From: "Jane ONeill" [cadence at rubix.net.au]
To: "Aussie Weather" [aussie-weather at world.std.com]
Subject: aus-wx: MSC update
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 23:04:47 +1000
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0
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I've loaded an animation of the IR satellite from 23rd - 29th August at the
following address. Be warned though, it's my first animation & takes 14
minutes to load...but worth a look if you have the patience.
http://www.rubix.net.au/~cadence/augustlow.htm
Jane
Bayswater
-------------------------------------------------------
Jane ONeill
ASWA - Victoria
Australian Severe Weather Assocn (ASWA Inc.)
Melbourne Storm Chasers
Email: cadence at rubix.net.au
-------------------------------------------------------
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042
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 23:05:51 +1000
From: Anthony Cornelius [cyclone at flatrate.net.au]
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To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Tornado or downburst
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Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Hi Michael
Michael Thompson wrote:
I cannot help thinking that
> there must be something to do with the extraordinary high overnight
> temperatures, we are talking mid teens, I would not mind betting that there
> may have been a cold dry air boundary somewhere more typical of a August
> night, perhaps just a thousand feet up. But I am lost for theories, any
> takers.
If you look at the AVN shear maps, if it was a tornado, it certainly
wasn't either supercellular, or a "coldie." Shear did not get above
30kn until you hit 400mb (from memory), not to mention the winds didn't
back with height, they were ESE on the surface, and only ever got around
to the NE. The low level shear was also very low (15kn from memory) -
"coldies" generally need strong low level shear, of which this was
absent. I have to agree with you, there had to be some dry air
somewhere, but maybe higher than 1000 feet.
--
Anthony Cornelius
Queensland Coordinator of the Australian Severe Weather Association
(ASWA)
(07) 3390 4812
14 Kinsella St
Belmont, Brisbane
QLD, 4153
Please report severe thunderstorms on our Queensland severe thunderstorm
reporting line on (07) 3390 4218 or by going to our homepage at
http://www.severeweather.asn.au
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| Document: 990830.htm
Updated: 09 September 1999 |
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