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Storm News
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Australian Weather Mailing List Archives: Friday, 7 January 2000 |
From Subject
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001 Ben Quinn [bodie at flatrate.net.au] Jan 5 Pictures
002 Anthony Cornelius [cyclone at flatrate.net.au] Adelaide radar strange
003 "Leslie R. Lemon" [lrlemon at compuserve.com] Adelaide radar strange
004 "Leslie R. Lemon" [lrlemon at compuserve.com] Eastern Brisbane Storm Damage
005 Les Crossan [les.crossan at virgin.net] Eastern Brisbane Storm Damage
006 Don White [donwhite at ozemail.com.au] Ballina Storm Report
007 "Leslie R. Lemon" [lrlemon at compuserve.com] Eastern Brisbane Storm Damage
008 "James Harris" [jimbohar at hotmail.com] Dec 23 photos plus DEC 30 SC pics
009 Les Crossan [les.crossan at virgin.net] Eastern Brisbane Storm Damage
010 Les Crossan [les.crossan at virgin.net] Atmospheric Charge
011 Paul.Mossman at DWNNICH.OCA.nt.gov.au Coral Sea TC formation alert
012 "Leslie R. Lemon" [lrlemon at compuserve.com] Atmospheric Charge
013 Les Crossan [les.crossan at virgin.net] Atmospheric Charge
014 Ben Quinn [bodie at flatrate.net.au] Eastern Brisbane Storm Damage
015 Paul Miracki [pmiracki at powerup.com.au] Satpic Archive!!
016 "John Woodbridge" [jrw at pixelcom.net] Eastern Brisbane Storm Damage
017 Paul.Mossman at DWNNICH.OCA.nt.gov.au Eastern Brisbane Storm Damage
018 Michael Bath [mbath at ozemail.com.au] North Coast storms - pictures added - gustnado ??
019 Paul.Mossman at DWNNICH.OCA.nt.gov.au Impressive Line of storms
020 "Leslie R. Lemon" [lrlemon at compuserve.com] Eastern Brisbane Storm Damage
021 Anthony Cornelius [cyclone at flatrate.net.au] January 5, 2000 Storm Chase Report
022 Jacob [jacob at iinet.net.au] Perth Heatwave
023 Michael Bath [mbath at ozemail.com.au] Perth Heatwave
024 Les Crossan [les.crossan at virgin.net] Eastern Brisbane Storm Damage
025 Les Crossan [les.crossan at virgin.net] Eastern Brisbane Storm Damage
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
001
Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2000 22:47:27 +1100
From: Ben Quinn [bodie at flatrate.net.au]
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Subject: aus-wx: Jan 5 Pictures
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Hi Everyone,
Unfortunately Anthony didn't have time to finish off the chase report he
was doing for the Jan 5 storms in SE QLD - should be up tomorrow
morning.. but in the meantime i figure people might want to check out a
couple of pictures..
http://www.bsch.simplenet.com/pictures/ben/newpics/
There are a tonne more, and some quite nice ones - but i will thumbnail
them all for the chase report tomorrow..
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002
Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2000 22:53:48 +1000
From: Anthony Cornelius [cyclone at flatrate.net.au]
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Subject: Re: aus-wx: Adelaide radar strange
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Hi Leslie and all,
I have uploaded some radar, and a sat pic of this radar event, goto:
http://bsch.simplenet.com/anthony/Jan%203%20Adelaide/
IDR461lp.gif = Adelaide Broad Loop at 0810-0910UTC
IDR463lp.gif = Adelaide Local Loop at 0810-0910UTC
GMSD-3c = Sat pic at 0830UTC
Hopefully this will help you inform all of us what possibly happened (or
if it is exactly the same to your previous explanation) :-)
"Leslie R. Lemon" wrote:
Anthony Cornelius
Queensland Coordinator of the Australian Severe Weather Association
(ASWA)
(07) 3390 4812
14 Kinsella St
Belmont, Brisbane
QLD, 4153
Please report severe thunderstorms on our Queensland severe thunderstorm
reporting line on (07) 3390 4218 or by going to our homepage at
http://www.severeweather.asn.au
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003
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 10:26:15 -0500
From: "Leslie R. Lemon" [lrlemon at compuserve.com]
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Adelaide radar strange
To: "INTERNET:aussie-weather at world.std.com" [aussie-weather at world.std.com]
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Thanks Anthony:
You wrote:
> Hi Leslie and all,
>
> I have uploaded some radar, and a sat pic of this radar event, goto:
>
> http://bsch.simplenet.com/anthony/Jan%203%20Adelaide/
>
> IDR461lp.gif = Adelaide Broad Loop at 0810-0910UTC
> IDR463lp.gif = Adelaide Local Loop at 0810-0910UTC
> GMSD-3c = Sat pic at 0830UTC
>
> Hopefully this will help you inform all of us what possibly happened (or
> if it is exactly the same to your previous explanation) :-)
LOL. I best keep my mouth shut! As I recall, the problem was how these
data relate to one-another and what the echo that is being detected, might
be. Is that a fair statement of the problem? First, I am having trouble
even orienting my self to the locality. Each loop does not appear to
relate to the other geographically. Nor do I know where to look of the sat
picture. I guess I am just very dense today! I am working on little sleep
but still, I can not believe how dense I am today. [S] The broad loop
(461) is anything but AP. Clearly that is real echo. On the other hand,
463 appears to contain echo that may be associated with the sea breeze or
some land-sea interaction. In any case, I see the confusion and I don't
have ANY explanation for this at all. I am simply dumfounded!
I was going to guess "angel echo" as another explanation, but that is not
what I see in 461 at all. Neither AP nor angel echo would show up on the
sat pics but the apparent lack of correlation between the radar loops is a
mystery. Finally, a sensitive radar can also detect biological echo. That
is echo caused by birds or insects. One would expect that to be seen more
clearly on the "local" loop. If I am even correct there, I am guessing
that the local loop is higher resolution and nearer the radar. Is that
correct, or am I also mixed up on that as well.
Bottom line, I have no idea and simply can't help here! Sorry!
Confused Les [S]
************************
Leslie R. Lemon
Radar, Severe Storms, & Research Meteorologist
Phone: 816-373-3533
E-Mail: lrlemon at compuserve.com
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004
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 11:25:20 -0500
From: "Leslie R. Lemon" [lrlemon at compuserve.com]
Subject: RE: aus-wx: Eastern Brisbane Storm Damage
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John and All:
> Yes I noticed this. Plenty of lightning in non-glaciated congestus.
Again
> raises the question of charge separation in so called "warm", i.e., non
> glaciating clouds. But, I presume that the clouds I was looking at, were
> not the ones producing hail, otherwise the above comment is naturally a
load
> of cods. Certainly we know there was plenty of cold air aloft.
With lightning of that magnitude, there had to be ice and supercooled water
in that cloud, anvil or none. In the past few months I spoke to an
atmospheric electrician concerning 'warm cloud' electrification and
lightning in the tropics. His reply to me was that there is no such thing
as 'warm cloud' (no ice) lightning. I am far from an authority here, but
those who are 'in the know' tell me the above.
les
************************
Leslie R. Lemon
Radar, Severe Storms, & Research Meteorologist
Phone: 816-373-3533
E-Mail: lrlemon at compuserve.com
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005
Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2000 17:59:12 +0000
From: Les Crossan [les.crossan at virgin.net]
Organization: Cosmic EuroCon Ltd. - note all times in GMT
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"Leslie R. Lemon" wrote:
> John and All:
>
> > Yes I noticed this. Plenty of lightning in non-glaciated congestus.
>
Were you sure it was *not* glaciated and not Cb calvus - no charge seperation
mechanism works with supercooled droplets. Lightning occurs in volcanoes but
that's due to charge seperation caused by dust.
>
>
> With lightning of that magnitude, there had to be ice and supercooled water
> in that cloud, anvil or none.
I read a letter in the 1970s by a M.A. Michaelis re this, it's the only one
I've ever read on atmospheric charge seperation - there must be ice available
for the Van Der Graff mechanism to work. (now going slightly OT) He also
postulated that the ionosphere and atmospheric (background) radiation had
something to do with it..... with the recent discovery of sprites and blue jets
often synchronised to lightning could the former postulate actually be the
case??
It would help if one of you weather buffs out there built an atmospheric charge
meter attached to a PC or chart recorder and see for yourself what happens
under CB clouds, an example here in the UK is (on my one):
normal non - thundery conditions: around 100v / m positive wrt gtound.
pre thunderstorm: -2.5kv/m negative wrt ground dropping to zero on the approach
of the gust front then fluctuating wildly on the TS passage and either settling
to 100v/m afterwards or going negative again depending on thunderiness!
I don't know how much has been done by professional metmen re this: perhaps Sir
Les could elaborate.
Les(UK)
------------------------------------------------------
Les Crossan
Wallsend, Tyne & Wear, UK 54-59N 01-30W
UK Storm Chaser
Australian Severe Weather Association (ASWA)- Victoria
http://www.rubix.net.au/~cadence/
Tornado and Storm Research Organisation (TORRO) - UK
Thunderstorm Census Organisation (TCO) - UK
http://www.torro.org.uk/
Email: les.NOSPAMcrossan at virgin.net (remove NOSPAM)
ICQ: 17296776
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006
Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2000 07:32:22 +1000
From: Don White [donwhite at ozemail.com.au]
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Subject: Re: aus-wx: Ballina Storm Report
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Michael,
Lennox Head (Lake Ainsworth) reported 28.5 mm in the hour between 3 & 4
pm on Wednesday 5th.
Don White
Michael Bath wrote:
>
> My parents in central Ballina reported jagged hard hail the size of large
> marbles (about 2cm diameter) around 3pm. The hail was reported to be
> bouncing in all directions. This is similar to the size John Graham
> reported from his house a few blocks away.
>
> In the local media today, it was reported that hail the size of golf balls
> (4cm) fell in Lennox Head, with the smaller stones in Byron Bay and Ballina.
>
> The higest rainfall total reported from the storm was 26mm at Ballina, but
> there was no report from Byron Bay or Lennox Head.
>
> regards, Michael
>
> At 00:24 06/01/2000 -0800, you wrote:
> >Hiyas All....
> >Sorry a bit late withg this report but I am still crawling with rellies here
> >in paradise at Evans Head.
> >Watched yesterday's storm develop to the NW and heard thunder. Michael
> >called and I jumped on the radar. Micheal took some pics from the Plateau
> >(west) and I got some back end shots from here. No major damage from what I
> >have heard....pea sized hail in Ballina from my sister there with the kids
> >at the local supermarket complex, and similar sized hail for about 5-10
> >minutes in Ballina-Lennox Head-Byron Bay, followed by 15-20 minutes of what
> >was described to me as "torrential rain".
> >Regards Halden Evans Head
> >
>
> ==================================================================
> Michael Bath mailto:mbath at ozemail.com.au
> Wollongbar NSW 2477 http://australiansevereweather.simplenet.com/
> Australia http://www.lightningphotography.com/
> Secretary ASWA Inc. http://www.severeweather.asn.au/
> ==================================================================
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> -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
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007
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 17:29:28 -0500
From: "Leslie R. Lemon" [lrlemon at compuserve.com]
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Eastern Brisbane Storm Damage
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Les:
> Were you sure it was *not* glaciated and not Cb calvus - no charge
seperation
> mechanism works with supercooled droplets. Lightning occurs in volcanoes
but
> that's due to charge seperation caused by dust.
Yes, volcanoes do produce lightning but the charge generation mechanism
there is different than those in water clouds, obviously. I have worked
with Earl Williams of MIT on a project to develop a Neural Network for
automated prediction of lightning. I also know Dave Rust and Dave
McGorman, both of NSSL and have worked with them to a limited extent as
well as talked with them on the subject. I do know that in order to get
sufficient field charges and charge seperation to create lightning that
mid-level reflectivities typically need to be ~ 45 dBZ, there needs to be
ice, water, and snow or graupel, all present in the same area at the same
time, and sufficiently strong drafts to redistribute charge. However, as I
have said, I am no expert.
> It would help if one of you weather buffs out there built an atmospheric
charge
> meter attached to a PC or chart recorder and see for yourself what
happens
> under CB clouds, an example here in the UK is (on my one):
>
> normal non - thundery conditions: around 100v / m positive wrt gtound.
> pre thunderstorm: -2.5kv/m negative wrt ground dropping to zero on the
approach
> of the gust front then fluctuating wildly on the TS passage and either
settling
> to 100v/m afterwards or going negative again depending on thunderiness!
Field charges can vary greatly, even in clear air. And as you have
mentioned here, the potential can reach, what seems to me anyway, extreme
levels. I have seen a photo of a lady with her long straight hair standing
straight up and with a big smile on here face. She was on a mountain side
in Colorado. The picture was taken by her husband. Right after he took
the picture she was struck by lightning and killed.
There has been quite a bit done on severe weather association with positive
charge transfer in CGs. However, far to little has been done on the
relationship of storm structure to intercloud, intracloud, and CGs. When I
first got my start in meteorology as a student and in part time employment
at NSSL, I worked with an atmospheric electrician, Gilbert Kinzer. I
learned then, it was the late '60s, that there was typically a direct
relationship of lightning and echo top. When tops reached about 40 kft,
it was virtually certain that lightning would be present.
> I don't know how much has been done by professional metmen re this:
perhaps Sir
> Les could elaborate.
I don't know who this "Sir Les" is. Maybe he will chime in here. [S]
Les
************************
Leslie R. Lemon
Radar, Severe Storms, & Research Meteorologist
Phone: 816-373-3533
E-Mail: lrlemon at compuserve.com
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008
X-Originating-IP: [210.9.51.34]
From: "James Harris" [jimbohar at hotmail.com]
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Dec 23 photos plus DEC 30 SC pics
Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2000 09:41:39 EST
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Hey Matt and others,
That is some nice photos you got there, thoroughly enjoyed them. Just love
the definition of them against the sky esp the updraughts.
I should have all the photos plus my report on the Dec 30 Supercell I chased
in the Hunter up pretty shortly. Our old computer has died and the new one
should be set up next week. Sorry about the delay but they will be here
shortly.
James Harris
>From: Matt Smith
>Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
>To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
>Subject: aus-wx: Dec 23 photos
>Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2000 23:33:41 +1100
>
>Heya's
>
>Just scanned some photos from the storm my and Jimmy chased in sydney on
>Dec 23.
>
>http://www.braenet.com.au/~disarm/thunderstruck/1999/december23.htm
>
>Also have these photos from December 30, stupid me never got a photo of the
>supercell up north James Harris was on.. not to worry, im sure he and
>others have photos of it...
>http://www.braenet.com.au/~disarm/thunderstruck/pictures/dec30-1.htm
>http://www.braenet.com.au/~disarm/thunderstruck/pictures/dec30-2.htm
>These were storms over Katoomba, had a warning out for it for 20 minutes or
>something, 3 seperate anvils in photo 1, and 2 updraughts. (no its not
>backsheared, its just the side of the anvil spreading out)
>
>Michael B -> Great reports there for those few storm days in a row you had!
>gret stuff, really enjoyed reading them, let me know when you get the
>photos done!
>
>Matt Smith
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> -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
______________________________________________________
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009
Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2000 23:03:27 +0000
From: Les Crossan [les.crossan at virgin.net]
Organization: Cosmic EuroCon Ltd. - note all times in GMT
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Subject: Re: aus-wx: Eastern Brisbane Storm Damage
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"Leslie R. Lemon" wrote:
> Les:
> there needs to be ice, water, and snow or graupel
Graupel = soft hail / snow grains / snow pellets, right?
>
> However, far to little has been done on the relationship of storm structure
> to intercloud, intracloud, and CGs.
I've seen C-A lightning from the top of the anvil UP... I saw the NASA footage
of sprites and blue jets and have wondered since if there was a relationship
with the tops of thunderstorms and the ionosphere....
Fascinating subject, indeed....
> I don't know who this "Sir Les" is.
sorry, won't do it again
Les (UK)
------------------------------------------------------
Les Crossan
Wallsend, Tyne & Wear, UK 54-59N 01-30W
UK Storm Chaser
Australian Severe Weather Association (ASWA)- Victoria
http://www.rubix.net.au/~cadence/
Tornado and Storm Research Organisation (TORRO) - UK
Thunderstorm Census Organisation (TCO) - UK
http://www.torro.org.uk/
Email: les.NOSPAMcrossan at virgin.net (remove NOSPAM)
ICQ: 17296776
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010
Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2000 23:07:47 +0000
From: Les Crossan [les.crossan at virgin.net]
Organization: Cosmic EuroCon Ltd. - note all times in GMT
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To: aus-wx [aussie-weather at world.std.com]
Subject: aus-wx: Atmospheric Charge
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Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
list -
If anyone is interested I've got circuit diagrams of a simple two -
plate electrostatic field strength meter as well as the diagrams of a
field mill as well as a simple interface to the PC serial port!
See for yourself what happens when a thunderstorm passes...
Les (UK)
------------------------------------------------------
Les Crossan
Wallsend, Tyne & Wear, UK 54-59N 01-30W
UK Storm Chaser
Australian Severe Weather Association (ASWA)- Victoria
http://www.rubix.net.au/~cadence/
Tornado and Storm Research Organisation (TORRO) - UK
Thunderstorm Census Organisation (TCO) - UK
http://www.torro.org.uk/
Email: les.NOSPAMcrossan at virgin.net (remove NOSPAM)
ICQ: 17296776
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011
From: Paul.Mossman at DWNNICH.OCA.nt.gov.au
To: " - *aussie-weather at world.std.com" [aussie-weather at world.std.com]
Subject: aus-wx: Coral Sea TC formation alert
Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 08:30:02 +0930
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I think this one may be too far away for you QLD'ers but you never know your
luck
in the big city ....so they say.
SUBJ/TROPICAL CYCLONE FORMATION ALERT 062251Z JAN 00//
RMKS/
1. IMMEDIATE DELIVERY REQ TO AMEMBASSY SUVA
2. IMMEDIATE DELIVERY REQ TO AMEMBASSY PORT MORESBY
3. FORMATION OF A SIGNIFICANT TROPICAL CYCLONE IS POSSIBLE WITHIN
150 NM EITHER SIDE OF A LINE FROM 13.4S8 163.4E4 TO 19.1S1
167.4E8 WITHIN THE NEXT 12 TO 24 HOURS. AVAILABLE DATA DOES NOT
JUSTIFY ISSUANCE OF NUMBERED TROPICAL CYCLONE WARNINGS AT THIS
TIME. WINDS IN THE AREA ARE ESTIMATED TO BE 20 TO 25 KNOTS.
METSAT IMAGERY AT 062130Z2 INDICATES THAT A CIRCULATION CENTER IS
LOCATED NEAR 15.3S9 164.5E6. THE SYSTEM APPEARS QUASI-STATIONARY.
4. REMARKS:
SCATTEROMETER IMAGERY CONTINUES TO REVEAL A DEFINED LOW LEVEL
CIRCULATION CENTER (LLCC) BENEATH CONVECTION THAT HAS
CONTINUED TO PERSIST AND INCREASE IN AREAL COVERAGE. UW-CIMSS
CHARTS INDICATES WEAK VERTICAL WIND SHEAR ACROSS THE REGION.
200 MB ANALYSIS SHOWS THE AREA IS BENEATH THE AXIS OF THE
UPPER LEVEL RIDGE WHICH IS PROVIDING GOOD OUTFLOW ALOFT.
MINIMUM SEA LEVEL PRESSURE IS ESTIMATED AT 1002 MB. THE
POTENTIAL FOR THE DEVELOPMENT OF A SIGNIFICANT TROPICAL
CYCLONE WITHIN THE NEXT 24 HOURS IS NOW GOOD.
5. THIS ALERT VALID UNTIL 072300Z2
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012
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 18:39:09 -0500
From: "Leslie R. Lemon" [lrlemon at compuserve.com]
Subject: aus-wx: Atmospheric Charge
To: "INTERNET:aussie-weather at world.std.com" [aussie-weather at world.std.com]
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Les and All:
> See for yourself what happens when a thunderstorm passes...
Having spent time on board a ship, I found that in some of our
communications gear on the bridge when thunderstorms were overhead, one
could hear a slowly rising hiss and then "scream" until a lightning strike
would relieve the field strength. Then, once again, you could hear the
slow rise in the tone until the "scream" could be heard just prior to the
strike.
Les
************************
Leslie R. Lemon
Radar, Severe Storms, & Research Meteorologist
Phone: 816-373-3533
E-Mail: lrlemon at compuserve.com
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013
Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2000 00:01:04 +0000
From: Les Crossan [les.crossan at virgin.net]
Organization: Cosmic EuroCon Ltd. - note all times in GMT
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
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To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Atmospheric Charge
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
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"Leslie R. Lemon" wrote:
> Les and All:
>
> > See for yourself what happens when a thunderstorm passes...
>
> Having spent time on board a ship, I found that in some of our
> communications gear on the bridge when thunderstorms were overhead
I was talking to Jane ONeill on ICQ about just this tonight, happens with old
valve (tube) radios,!
*snip*
old valve radios used to go zzzzzeeeeee - pop (not a very good description)
due to electrons leaving the aerial
*snip*
Les
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014
Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2000 10:06:40 +1100
From: Ben Quinn [bodie at flatrate.net.au]
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Subject: Re: aus-wx: Eastern Brisbane Storm Damage
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Hi Les, everyone..
Les Crossan wrote:
>
> "Leslie R. Lemon" wrote:
>
> > John and All:
> >
> > > Yes I noticed this. Plenty of lightning in non-glaciated congestus.
> >
>
> Were you sure it was *not* glaciated and not Cb calvus - no charge seperation
> mechanism works with supercooled droplets. Lightning occurs in volcanoes but
> that's due to charge seperation caused by dust.
>
Here are some pictures of the storm that was producing the lightning..
http://www.bsch.simplenet.com/pictures/ben/05-01-2000-20.jpg
http://www.bsch.simplenet.com/pictures/ben/05-01-2000-21.jpg
http://www.bsch.simplenet.com/pictures/ben/05-01-2000-33.jpg
http://www.bsch.simplenet.com/pictures/ben/05-01-2000-34.jpg
http://www.bsch.simplenet.com/pictures/ben/05-01-2000-15.jpg
http://www.bsch.simplenet.com/pictures/ben/05-01-2000-30.jpg
> >
> > With lightning of that magnitude, there had to be ice and supercooled water
> > in that cloud, anvil or none.
<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>
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015
Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2000 12:09:12 +1000
From: Paul Miracki [pmiracki at powerup.com.au]
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To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: aus-wx: Satpic Archive!!
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Hello,
I have found this nice site, it seems they keep an archive of sat pics
from the last 3 days!!
http://www.yoko.npmoc.navy.mil/nsds-e20shots/
:-)
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016
From: "John Woodbridge" [jrw at pixelcom.net]
To: [aussie-weather at world.std.com]
Subject: RE: aus-wx: Eastern Brisbane Storm Damage
Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 12:36:33 +1000
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Nice pictures Ben,
No doubt we could have a really good debate as to whether or not charge
separation can occur in warm clouds. There certainly are two schools of
thought. As noted below lightning has been observed in volcanic plumes and
also in the atmospheres of other planets where ice definitely is not
present, i.e., Venus and also Jupiter (in the latter case, maybe an "ice" of
a different kind, i.e., solid of some gas perhaps).
John.
>snip
>
> Were you sure it was *not* glaciated and not Cb calvus - no charge
seperation
> mechanism works with supercooled droplets. Lightning occurs in volcanoes
but
> that's due to charge seperation caused by dust.
>
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017
From: Paul.Mossman at DWNNICH.OCA.nt.gov.au
To: " - *aussie-weather at world.std.com" [aussie-weather at world.std.com]
Subject: RE: aus-wx: Eastern Brisbane Storm Damage
Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 13:09:07 +0930
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Agree with you John.
If you think about simply - lightning is a product of static build up to a
point where it has to discharge to the point where it can reach equilibirum. Ie
build of positive electrons within a storm discharging to a negative ground
etc.
We all know that You can make your own static without ice - friction on carpet
for one. I seem to recall deep in the recesses of my brain somewhere that
static is caused by atoms colliding causing electrons to become sheared of the
original atom. These excess electrons either are re-caught by other nuclei or
form together to cause static.
Know we all know that rain drops form on some sort of nuclei - whether it be
dust, sand, pollution etc. Whats to say that when rain drops collide in
updrafts that the resultant friction couldnt cause static leading to lightning
etc? I mean this would account for "warm" storms having the potential to have
lightning
Another train of thought - what about different air masses colliding? I am
sure that everyone has experienced the low humidity days where theres a decent
Westerly blowing etc and you get outa a car etc and get zapped big time - I
recall seeing a paper once on how a car driving causes massive static build ups
due to friction with air. Now why couldnt the updrafts of a decent CB cause
this as well? I mean they have winds moving a vast speeds within these systems
- there would most certainly have to be some sort of action caused by that (ie
the up & down drafts).
I think what this debate shows is the little we really do know about lightning.
However I may be on the wrong train here - thoughts please.
Paul.
jrw at pixelcom.net at world.std.com on 07/01/2000 12:32:12 PM
Please respond to aussie-weather at world.std.com
Sent by: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
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Subject: RE: aus-wx: Eastern Brisbane Storm Damage
Nice pictures Ben,
No doubt we could have a really good debate as to whether or not charge
separation can occur in warm clouds. There certainly are two schools of
thought. As noted below lightning has been observed in volcanic plumes and
also in the atmospheres of other planets where ice definitely is not
present, i.e., Venus and also Jupiter (in the latter case, maybe an "ice" of
a different kind, i.e., solid of some gas perhaps).
John.
>snip
>
> Were you sure it was *not* glaciated and not Cb calvus - no charge
seperation
> mechanism works with supercooled droplets. Lightning occurs in volcanoes
but
> that's due to charge seperation caused by dust.
>
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018
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Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2000 16:17:54 +1100
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
From: Michael Bath [mbath at ozemail.com.au]
Subject: aus-wx: North Coast storms - pictures added - gustnado ??
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Hi All,
I have a few of my pictures processed so far, but Halden Boyd has sent all
his shots for the 31/12/99 Evans Head storm and for the Ballina 5/1/00
storm as well.
You can find the articles from here:
http://australiansevereweather.simplenet.com/storm_news/
with my pictures added for the 30/12/99 storm:
http://australiansevereweather.simplenet.com/storm_news/1999/docs/9912-03.htm
the early pics of mine (more to come tomorrow) and all of Halden's amazing
shots for 31/12/99:
http://australiansevereweather.simplenet.com/storm_news/1999/docs/9912-04.htm
What do you think of the fifth and sixth images in the sequence by Halden?
Also Halden's shots for 5/1/00:
http://australiansevereweather.simplenet.com/storm_news/2000/docs/0001-01.htm.
regards, Michael
==================================================================
Michael Bath mailto:mbath at ozemail.com.au
Wollongbar NSW 2477 http://australiansevereweather.simplenet.com/
Australia http://www.lightningphotography.com/
Secretary ASWA Inc. http://www.severeweather.asn.au/
==================================================================
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019
From: Paul.Mossman at DWNNICH.OCA.nt.gov.au
To: " - *aussie-weather at world.std.com" [aussie-weather at world.std.com]
Subject: aus-wx: Impressive Line of storms
Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 14:51:18 +0930
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Howdy all.
Impressive line of storms on radar and visual at the moment. Boiling updrafts,
reaching way into the sky.
Something stirring - satpics, radar & visual obs show that all forming in
almost a straight line - any ideas why?
Have no idea - unless theres a Low forming in the Gulf of Carpentaria and this
is like an inflow band.
Paul.
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020
Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 00:47:48 -0500
From: "Leslie R. Lemon" [lrlemon at compuserve.com]
Subject: RE: aus-wx: Eastern Brisbane Storm Damage
To: "INTERNET:aussie-weather at world.std.com" [aussie-weather at world.std.com]
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Paul and All:
> We all know that You can make your own static without ice - friction on
carpet
> for one. I seem to recall deep in the recesses of my brain somewhere that
> static is caused by atoms colliding causing electrons to become sheared
of the
> original atom. These excess electrons either are re-caught by other
nuclei or
> form together to cause static.
Lots sniped..........
As I have said, I am no expert in this field. However, I also know that
there have been well controlled and designed field programs with aircraft
measurements in situ, radar, field meters, and much more instrumentation,
etc. These studies have been going on for 30 to 50 years and conducted by
intelligent people. I would hope that if it was this simple, the results
of these programs would have revealed that to be the case. But then again,
my information may have been remembered incorrectly or I might simply be
mistaken. In fact it is these latter two possibilities that are probably
correct. My brain is getting old and does not work as well as it once did.
I will need to go to the papers and texts to see if they corroborate my
flawed memory. [S]
There is one other possibility. That is that despite all the evidence to
the contrary the scientists today continue to believe incorrect ideas and
concepts. Priestly and phlogiston is only one of many examples from the
history of science. I also believe this is going on today relative to some
other concepts that seem to permeate all of science. Many people seem to
insist emphatically that science is the only way to establish "truth".
That is simply not true. So much of current "scientific knowledge" and
"scientific thought" will be thrown out, greatly revised and modified, and
replaced such that the landscape of what we believe to be scientific fact
and truth will almost be unrecognizable in the future, even as little as 50
to 100 years into the future. There is much that can be said for the value
of philosophy and religion in seeking the truth about our surroundings and
the material world. In fact, a very often overlooked and unrecognized case
in point is that the basis for science as a truth seeking method itself
rests not on the scientific method or principal but rather on philosophy!!
I have probably wondered off the path of threads appropriate for the ASWA
and may have inadvertently stepped on the toes of some. I am sorry. I
will get down off my soap box and fall into quiet for now.
Les
************************
Leslie R. Lemon
Radar, Severe Storms, & Research Meteorologist
Phone: 816-373-3533
E-Mail: lrlemon at compuserve.com
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021
Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2000 18:36:10 +1000
From: Anthony Cornelius [cyclone at flatrate.net.au]
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wx-chase
Subject: aus-wx: January 5, 2000 Storm Chase Report
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Hi all,
I've done a report for Wednesday's storm chase - Ben has his digicam
pictures in there (quite a few!!)
It was a great day overall, some really great features!
The URL is:
http://www.bsch.simplenet.com/products/reports/2000/january/5/5.htm
I'm currently scanning some photos of this day, and previous days
(including the Thunder Downunder chase), I should hopefully get these up
soon!
--
Anthony Cornelius
Queensland Coordinator of the Australian Severe Weather Association
(ASWA)
(07) 3390 4812
14 Kinsella St
Belmont, Brisbane
QLD, 4153
Please report severe thunderstorms on our Queensland severe thunderstorm
reporting line on (07) 3390 4218 or by going to our homepage at
http://www.severeweather.asn.au
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022
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Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2000 16:45:29 +0800
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
From: Jacob [jacob at iinet.net.au]
Subject: aus-wx: Perth Heatwave
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Today is the 15th day in a row that Perth City made it over 32C, the record
is 16 days in a row in February, 1996.
Tomorrow 28C is forecast, so we are unlikely to tie or break it.
Also, over the past 22 days, we've only had 2 days under 32C.
Here's the Perth City maximum temperatures since the 17/12, with the
current 15 day heatwave starting on the 24/12:
17/12 32.2C
18/12 34.5C
19/12 32.2C
20/12 29.7C
21/12 36.0C
22/12 39.6C
23/12 27.7C
24/12 37.6C
25/12 34.8C
26/12 35.9C
27/12 39.3C
28/12 35.2C
29/12 34.0C
30/12 33.9C
31/12 35.4C
1/1 36.6C
2/1 36.5C
3/1 35.9C
4/1 37.2C
5/1 36.9C
6/1 35.1C
7/1 33.4C
Jacob
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023
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Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2000 20:04:54 +1100
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
From: Michael Bath [mbath at ozemail.com.au]
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Perth Heatwave
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Geez, and I thought the western suburbs of Sydney were bad (when I was
living there)!
Pity the record is unlikely to be broken with such a string of hot weather.
By contrast, here in the NSW North Coast (several degrees N of Perth) there
has been only about 5 days over 30 degrees this Spring/Summer - the hottest
day being last Wednesday (5th) of around 34 degrees.
regards, Michael
At 16:45 07/01/2000 +0800, you wrote:
>
>Today is the 15th day in a row that Perth City made it over 32C, the record
>is 16 days in a row in February, 1996.
>
>Tomorrow 28C is forecast, so we are unlikely to tie or break it.
>
>Also, over the past 22 days, we've only had 2 days under 32C.
>
>Here's the Perth City maximum temperatures since the 17/12, with the
>current 15 day heatwave starting on the 24/12:
>
[snip temps]
==================================================================
Michael Bath mailto:mbath at ozemail.com.au
Wollongbar NSW 2477 http://australiansevereweather.simplenet.com/
Australia http://www.lightningphotography.com/
Secretary ASWA Inc. http://www.severeweather.asn.au/
==================================================================
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024
Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2000 09:23:02 +0000
From: Les Crossan [les.crossan at virgin.net]
Organization: Cosmic EuroCon Ltd. - note all times in GMT
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
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To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Eastern Brisbane Storm Damage
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
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>Ben Quinn wrote:
Sure looks like warm raincloud but isn't there just the merest hint of ice at the
cloud tops? I'd say this was Cb calvus but....
I'll get the circuits and diagrams scanned later on today (0916z here presently),
my field mill was calibrated to +-5% against an electrostatic voltmeter and an HV
source, the two plate method, even though simpler, is somewhat less accurate but
will show the wild swings in electrostatic field strength under an active Cb...
I can supply the Visual Basic executable file that I use to read the serial port as
well... it's down to you to get it to a spreadsheet or graphing program (:
It's a fascinating subject, I've been doing it for years and it's one area where
amateurs can still contribute....
Les (UK)
------------------------------------------------------
Les Crossan
Wallsend, Tyne & Wear, UK 54-59N 01-30W
UK Storm Chaser
Australian Severe Weather Association (ASWA)- Victoria
http://www.rubix.net.au/~cadence/
Tornado and Storm Research Organisation (TORRO) - UK
Thunderstorm Census Organisation (TCO) - UK
http://www.torro.org.uk/
Email: les.NOSPAMcrossan at virgin.net (remove NOSPAM)
ICQ: 17296776
------------------------------------------------------
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-----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
025
Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2000 09:28:36 +0000
From: Les Crossan [les.crossan at virgin.net]
Organization: Cosmic EuroCon Ltd. - note all times in GMT
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
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To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Eastern Brisbane Storm Damage
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
"Leslie R. Lemon" wrote:
Paul and All:
> We all know that You can make your own static without ice - friction
on
carpet
> for one. I seem to recall deep in the recesses of my brain somewhere
that
> static is caused by atoms colliding causing electrons to become
sheared
of the
> original atom. These excess electrons either are re-caught by other
nuclei or
> form together to cause static.
..... and ice, being less conductive than water, allows the charge to accumulate.
Water simply allows the charge to leak away - as you'll know lightning
doesn't like rain. When electrons are stripped off atoms the atoms become
more positively charged and the surplus of electrons are pooled to form
a negatively charged region. I don't know if the glaciation process and
movement of ice through a cloud is sufficient by itself, mind. Again there's
a +225kv battery up there, called the ionosphere...
Les(UK)
------------------------------------------------------
Les Crossan
Wallsend, Tyne & Wear, UK 54-59N 01-30W
UK Storm Chaser
Australian Severe Weather Association (ASWA)- Victoria
http://www.rubix.net.au/~cadence/
Tornado and Storm Research Organisation (TORRO) - UK
Thunderstorm Census Organisation (TCO) - UK
http://www.torro.org.uk/
Email: les.NOSPAMcrossan at virgin.net (remove NOSPAM)
ICQ: 17296776
------------------------------------------------------
| Document: 000107.htm
Updated: 09 January 2000 |
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