From: "John Woodbridge" To: Subject: RE: aus-wx: Kangeroo Pt Temps Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 23:59:40 +1000 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com Hi Jason, Anthony, Well, there ya go. A sizeable body of relatively warm water will have a substantial moderating input on the immediate vicinity, expecially if just downwind of whatever breeze there may be. The Brisbane river is generally quite warm due to the muddiness of the water which enhances the amount of solar radiation absorbed. So you would expect a site close to it to read high for winter mins and low for summer max's. Of course, those of us with a suspicious mind would suggest that the site has in fact been carefully chosen to make Brisbane appear more pleasant for the tourist industry,... But that has been said before about the Airport. I guess it does raise the question as to what is really a representative location in Brisbane. Brisbane is a rather hilly place, with many sites exposed to wind and others well sheltered. I think it can well be safely assumed that the Airport is not really representative due to it's close proximity to Moreton Bay, where it is subject to very early sea breeze influences in summer. Arguably, both Archerfield and the Airport could be ruled out as the exposed flat open environment is not typical of most of residential Brisbane. I think you want somewhere at least 500m from the river, which is around the BCC area population density mean from Moreton Bay and around a mean elevation for Brisbane (say 20m). A location at the Mt. Coot-tha Botanic Gardens might fill the bill. John. >snip Subject: aus-wx: Kangeroo Pt Temps I know when I used to ride to rockcliming at KP in the winter, the temp increased by maybe 4-6 degrees as soon as you drop down to the river. It went from bloody cold (on a pushie) to a reasonably pleasant temp. The difference was more pronounced the colder and stiller the night was. Although the new station is back a bit from the river, it surrounds it on 3 sides. You'd think the BOM would have tested the site and realised how dodgy it is. Using the temps from Archerfield might have been a better idea. Roll on summer Pommy +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your message. -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ From: "John Woodbridge" To: Subject: RE: aus-wx: Fish Rain Supreme Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 00:08:56 +1000 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com Mmm. Live fish mean they were probably swimming around in their normal environment less than 5 mins before (either that or some relief organisation got a little too carried away with their Hercules). Would be interesting to know whether the species were fresh or salt water, and in fact could well be used to identify the source, as many fish in that part of the world are unique to particular lakes/rivers. Maybe the said Saloto Sodoro would know... John >snip Subject: aus-wx: Fish Rain Supreme Hello all, despite all the "freak weather" we have been witnessing, it appears we are not the only ones in the world. Take for example below, an article from the Melbourne Herald Sun (Saturday June 3, 2000): "ADDIS ABABA-Drought-stricken peasant farmers tending their fields in southern Ethiopia got a nasty shock when the heavens opened and they were pelted by thousands of fish. The unusual downpour of dead and live fish created panic among the mostly religious farmers. Saloto Sodoro, a fish expert in the region, attributes the phenomenon to heavy storms in the Indian Ocean There's been a waterspout somewhere - but the distance between the Indian Ocean and Ethiopia is quite substantial - must have been a more local event. Les +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your message. -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 14:05:21 -0400 From: "Leslie R. Lemon" Subject: aus-wx: good weather learning link To: "INTERNET:aussie-weather at world.std.com" X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by europe.std.com id OAA02410 Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com Jimmy Deguara wrote: > In searching for stuff over the net, I cam across this link. I think those > who are not sure about certain parts of meteorology will find the way this > material is presented very helpful and easy to understand. > > http://www.atmos.ucla.edu/ugrads/classes/win99/win99_3/screens.html Yes, another good source of info.......including fronts, cyclones, etc. Thanks much for this very good refence! Les ************************ Leslie R. Lemon Radar, Severe Storms, & Research Meteorologist Tel. 816-373-3533, 816-213-3237 E-Mail: lrlemon at compuserve.com +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your message. -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 06:07:10 -0700 From: Lindsay X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) To: aussie-weather at world.std.com Subject: aus-wx: Cool Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com Blackheath 6am Monday Ligh rain/sleet falling here. It's currently 1.5 degrees, having dropped from around 3 degrees when the rain started falling at 5am, at least thats when I heard it begin. Lindsay Pearce +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your message. -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 07:25:13 -0700 From: Lindsay X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) To: aussie-weather at world.std.com Subject: Re: aus-wx: Cool Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com Monday 7:30am Snowing in Blackheath. Very large flakes (up to 20 cent piece size and larger) filled the sky at around 7:15am and started settling,temp is still around one so they are very wet flakes, obviously. Not sure if its forecast to get colder... Will keep you informed. Lindsay P. Lindsay wrote: > > Blackheath 6am Monday > > Ligh rain/sleet falling here. It's currently 1.5 degrees, having dropped > from around 3 degrees when the rain started falling at 5am, at least > thats when I heard it begin. > > Lindsay Pearce > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com > with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your > message. > -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your message. -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 08:39:59 +1000 From: David Carroll X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en To: Aussie Weather Subject: aus-wx: Bathurst - Oberon Weather Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com HI. Well Bathurst has had a good fall of rain overnight. Just heard news, snow falling in Oberon and quite heavy. All roads are still open at present. Good news for all you snow chases out there.. Dave +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your message. -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 18:53:41 -0400 From: "Leslie R. Lemon" Subject: Re: aus-wx: Cold snap moves on?? To: "INTERNET:aussie-weather at world.std.com" X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by europe.std.com id SAA01055 Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com Anthony Cornelius wrote: > Firstly, Leslie's. > > "Leslie R. Lemon" wrote: > > > Interestingly, I've heard a few people say that this storm season has a > bit of a flop in the US. Are these people being sourpusses or is their > some truth to their claim? I do not recall seeing as much US tornado > footage on AU TV this year then in previous years - although there was > some nice footage of some tornadoes to the north of the plains. Here I will reproduce the SPC statistics as of May 31 this year: STAMTS WWUS61 KNAW 312243 STORM PREDICTION CENTER (NORMAN OK) ....THROUGH 7 AM CDT 05/31/00 STATISTICS FOR TORNADO TOTALS AND TORNADO RELATED DEATHS .......NUMBER OF TORNADOES....... NUMBER OF KILLER TORNADO DEATHS TORNADOES .....2000.. ...1999.... 1998 1997 3YR 3YR PRELIM FINAL PRELIM FINAL FINAL FINAL AVG 00 99 98 97 AVG 00 99 98 JAN 16 - 169 216 47 50 104 0 18 0 2 6 0 9 0 FEB 49 - 18 22 72 23 39 18 0 42 1 14 3 0 4 MAR 80 - 28 57 72 102 77 2 1 16 28 15 1 1 4 APR 95 - 152 172 182 114 156 2 15 55 1 23 2 0 14 MAY 216 - 325 312 308 225 282 2 54 10 29 31 2 9 5 JUN - - 275 286 373 193 284 - 4 3 0 2 - 2 2 JUL - - 82 99 82 188 126 - 0 0 4 1 - 0 0 AUG - - 86 82 60 84 75 - 1 0 1 1 - 1 0 SEP - - 42 54 104 32 63 - 0 2 1 1 - 0 2 OCT - - 5 18 86 100 62 - 0 2 0 1 - 0 2 NOV - - 10 8 25 25 19 - 0 0 0 0 - 0 0 DEC - - 13 - 6 12 6 - 2 0 0 0 - 1 0 --- --- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- -- -- --- -- -- -- -- -- SUM 456 - 1205 1326 1417 1148 1302 24 95 130 67 97 8 29 33 I hope that survived internet transmission. This past week had seen the first tornadoes of the year for Oklahoma! That is a VERY LEAN year! Not the norm at all. However, I do have some images I have been waiting until all the excitement about the snow and cold abates and I have finished getting them ready (with captions) to give to the list. I will do that as soon as I can and with the tremendous help of Jane. > What strikes me as interesting, are a few 'sayings' that relate winter > and summer, as well as Australia and the US. For example: > > - A cold winter means an active thunderstorm season > - A warm winter means a poor thunerstorm season > - A good US season means a poor AU season > - A poor US season means a good AU season > > Only thing is, aside from May 3 - I wouldn't have called 1999 > "exceptional" - but perhaps I'm wrong? What are your thoughts Leslie? > I know they're generalisations - but cold winters and active > thunderstorm seasons do seem to have some truth to them here. But > perhaps leaning more towards the synopic situations that result in them > - and certainly not just because it was "cold." I'm not a huge fan on > the explanation of colder upper levels - as this can change in a matter > of 24hrs with thermal advection. In general, the statistics do not support these sayings. So, I don't put a lot of thought into them. One notable thing that has come out of the last two years is the number of larger cities struck by tornadoes. That seems to be noteworthy because so few were hit before. 1998 was noteworthy early on due to the extremely active tornado season in the deep south. This year, the upper flow seems to be about a month ahead of climatology. We are quickly entering an upper flow pattern that seems much more like July than June and that is the way it has been all year thus far. But as with several of the more recent winters, the one just past was much warmer and less snowy than is climatology. > Perhaps the US and AU correlations are just a matter of co-incidence. > But I'm just interested in your thoughts. I truly hope they are correlated and when our winter comes, we will have the type of winter you are having. However, our population is spread across the whole country in contrast to Australia. That can make a big difference. For example, the mean long wave trough position can set up over the eastern US, they get a bad winter and we, in the central US, will end up being under an upper ridge and have a mild, dry, but changeable winter. So, where you live relative to the long wave trough and storm track has much to do with how you perceive the winter. Les ************************ Leslie R. Lemon Radar, Severe Storms, & Research Meteorologist Tel. 816-373-3533, 816-213-3237 E-Mail: lrlemon at compuserve.com +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your message. -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 09:15:21 +1000 From: Ross Wilson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en To: Aussie Weather Subject: aus-wx: Aus-wx: Orange: More snow X-Sender: (Unverified) Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com Hi everyone Really cold again up here on the Tablelands, with a gusty, cold westerly blowing. Temp +1C. Some very light falls of snow overnight, probably above 3000 ft, together with the forecast showers, but only very light snow on the ground at our elevation (3300ft). All roads are clear. See what later today, and overnight brings! Ross +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your message. -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ From: "Lyle Pakula" To: Subject: aus-wx: Ski Resorts / Lenticular Cloud Phenomena??? Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 09:19:11 +1000 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com Hi, I returned from Falls Creek on Saturday night, after spending 4 days in the snow (3 hiking - 1 free lifts). We had an awesome time but it didn't seem like it was going to be after day 1 (wednessday). Typical Australian conditions, rain followed the front right up to 1800m where we were hiking. Great for solidifying the snow pack, pathetic for preservation of snow quality. Winds were very gusty about the peaks (70km/h sustained with higher gusts). My mate had wanted to come up on Sunday but the models were showing winds up top - Locals said the weather was very bad untill Wednesday (our first day). So we missed the good quallity snow but couldn;t have hiked to it anyway :) I guess it pays to know a little about the weather! That night saw a dusting and a freeze leading to some very crusty conditions. But Thursday started off sunny, softening up the north faces giving some good conditions for fresh tracks. We did find a small patch of preserved, wind blown dried snow on Mt McKay. Must say one of the highlights of my trip was seeing lenticular clouds 5 plates high. Not only were they poping up everywhere but, being at a high altiutude, gave some awesome views *into* the stack - awesome! I have some photo's so hopefully they will come out and I'll post them. One thing I saw which was highly interesting was the follwing; A lenticular was sitting there for a while and I was monitoring it as we hiked across the ridge. Then the weirdest thing happened. The Lenticular turned from a typical smooth texture to a mackeral texture - hundreds of criss-crossing lines - it was at this very moment that the entire cloud was advected with the wind and soon evaporated. My guess is that the mountain wave broke and the wind shear caused the undualting appearance - any ideas? Thursday was also exciting as we were filmed by the Falls Creek/Mt Hotham helicopter on our way to Mt McKay. We found out they were taking photage for next years brochure and that we might be in it #8-) That would be one hell of a thrill! Thursday afternoon turned cloudy and windy but no snow or rain about, ice was widespread by 5pm when shadows spread over the sun softened snow. Friday was a brillant day and we got on film again, this time for Ch 7 news! The snow had now been dried out and packed by the strong winds but the sun made it very enjoyable. There was enough snow that some cornice's had already started to form, of course we dropped these :) The whole day was blue sky and absoloutly awesome (again). Ice widespread with dusk. Saturday was very different. After being one of the few people on the hill and in the backcountry, there were now thousands of people but fresh lines were still there all day, if you knew where to go ;) A few friends came up for the free lifts, so it was a really fun day - especially as this was my last chance to ride with most of my friends for what will porbably be a very long time. The valley fog was soon swamped by low level cloud moving in - a spectacular sight that I had only seen once before in NZ, pitty I didn't have a camera on me that day. All in all an awesome week, will post some select photos of the conditions out there - well worth a look. Cheers, a very tanned Lyle. - - ---==( lyle_pakula at hotmail.com )==--- - - . / \ . /~~~\/ \ " No Friends On A Powder Day " / \ \ / \ \ +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your message. -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ From: "Lyle Pakula" To: Subject: Re: aus-wx: snowfalls Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 09:33:26 +1000 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com Hi David, > Another important point in this is the role humidity plays. If the humidity > is low (particularly subzero wet bulb temperatures), falling flakes cool > through the evaporation, slowing or even preventing melting. As a guide, wouldn't evaporation imply melting?? I would think high humidity implies saturation of the air, hence impeding further evaporation allowing snow to fall, so long as temps were cold enough. I obvoously have something wrong here??? Thanks, Lyle. +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your message. -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ From: "Godsman, Andrew AG" To: "'aussie-weather at world.std.com'" Subject: RE: aus-wx: Cold morning Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 07:46:11 +1000 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com Michael, Just a little extra bit of local news from that event. I agree that I don't remember hearing of snow in Wollongong as in the city centre, but probably the lowest report in the Illawarra area would have been a brief mention of a flurry lasting a few minutes at the retirement village at the top of Mt Warrigul, which would be around 100-130m elevation and only 3-4km inland. You're right about the snow level on the escarpment also, it was fairly clear to see the snow line by the areas of white trees (snow pasted) which was around halfway down the mountains, which certainly would've meant flurries to lower levels. Andrew Godsman > ---------- > From: Michael Thompson[SMTP:michaelt at ozemail.com.au] > Reply To: aussie-weather at world.std.com > Sent: Sunday, 4 June 2000 8:36 > To: aussie-weather at world.std.com > Subject: Re: aus-wx: Cold morning > > If snow fell in Wollongong during this event I missed it and I was outside > observing every last drop of cold rain as the temperature which had been 17C > earlier in day had plummeted to 4C, this is about as cold as it gets here > even on cold clear nights ( like last night ), let alone mid afternoon. > There was no snow in the rain I saw. > > I drove to Robertson and snow was on the side of the road from about half > way up Macquarie Pass, at about 400m, so flurries would have went lower. > There was snow reported from the F6 tollway booths at Waterfall and by > motorists along various parts of the F6, but we are talking 250 -400m > elevation. Other reports in the area was snow at Mount Keira, again 450m odd > high and at Yellow Rock a small village near Macquarie Pass, but again at > least 200m elevation. > > Michael > > > > > > > > > I know for a fact that the lower Blue Mountains and > > > parts of Wollongong > > > also observed snow during this event as mentioned in > > > recent e-mails. > > > > > > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com > with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your > message. > -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ > > EOM NOTICE - This message contains information intended only for the use of the addressee named above. It may also be confidential and/or privileged. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that you must not disseminate, copy or take any action in reliance on it. If you have received this message in error please notify postmaster at bhp.com.au. +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your message. -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 21:07:59 -0400 From: "Leslie R. Lemon" Subject: Re: aus-wx: snowfalls To: "INTERNET:aussie-weather at world.std.com" X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by europe.std.com id VAA16180 Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com > Hi David, > > > Another important point in this is the role humidity plays. If the > humidity > > is low (particularly subzero wet bulb temperatures), falling flakes cool > > through the evaporation, slowing or even preventing melting. As a guide, > > wouldn't evaporation imply melting?? I would think high humidity implies > saturation of the air, hence impeding further evaporation allowing snow to > fall, so long as temps were cold enough. Falling snow outside the cloud and in sub zero C wet bulb will sublimate. That is, the H2O goes directly from solid to vapor bypassing liquid. Often, the falling snow will sublimate/evaporate before reaching the ground. As this process goes on the atmosphere cools and becomes saturated via this process to progressively lower and lower levels until finally reaching the surface. In cloud, snow flakes/ice crystals grow at the expense of supercooled liquid because of the lower vapor pressure over ice than water. Les ************************ Leslie R. Lemon Radar, Severe Storms, & Research Meteorologist Tel. 816-373-3533, 816-213-3237 E-Mail: lrlemon at compuserve.com +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your message. -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ From: Blair Trewin Subject: Re: aus-wx: Cold morning To: aussie-weather at world.std.com Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 11:16:24 +1000 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com I haven't gone through all the records yet, but a few notables from the weekend: Darwin (12.5, Saturday) - lowest in any month since 22/7/1965 - lowest in June since 23/6/1963 - lowest on record for so early in winter - 2nd lowest on record for June (after 12.1 on 23/6/1963) - 8th lowest on record for any month Canberra (-7 rounded, Saturday) - lowest in June since 29/6/1986 (-7.7) - 3rd earliest instance of such a low minimum (after the two May -7s, in 1957 and 1976). Notable minima for Sunday in New England include -9.0 at Woolbrook, -8.9 at Armidale and -8.4 at Glen Innes Airport. The Woolbrook obs is not a record (that honour goes to a remarkable -14.5 in June 1994, the second-lowest at any non-alpine Australian site), and the other two sites have too short a period of record for comparisons to be meaningful (at Armidale there was a major site change a couple of years ago - although the 'new' site had about 18 years of private observations prior to becoming an official Bureau site and I'm not sure what we're doing with those obs), but they're still impressive numbers (until this week at least). I'll have a look at other notable values, including the southern NSW maxima on Saturday, later on today when I get a chance. Blair Trewin +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your message. -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ From: Blair Trewin Subject: Re: aus-wx: Goulburn headed for record? To: aussie-weather at world.std.com Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 11:35:00 +1000 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com > > Paul, -7.8 is the lowest in my database, but that's only computer-era > data. That's the coldest for June, and the coldest for all months. > > Laurier > > > On Sat, 3 Jun 2000 05:59:00 +1000, "The Weather Co." > wrote: > > >Hi Blair, > > Can you confirm the coldest recorded minimum for Goulburn in June > >is -7.8c....Or is it -7.4c? The current temp there this morning is -6.8c > >(at 5am). > >- Paul G. I wasn't in on the weekend, so have only just started sorting this out. The Goulburn Airport min ended up being -6.9, short of record territory. This is a particularly cold site. There have been two sites at the Goulburn Airport as far as I can tell: 70210 (Goulburn Aero), which operated in the 1967-71 period, and 70330 (Goulburn Airport AWS), which started in 1988. The June records at the sites are -9.4 on 3/6/1967, and -8.6 on 26/6/1993. The Aero site went below -10 five times in July 1971 (including -13.9 on the 12th and -13.8 on the 11th), whilst the AWS has been below -10 three times, twice in August 1994 (including its record of -10.9 on the 17th) and once in August 1999. From the coordinates the AWS appears to be about 800 metres south of the Aero site, but I haven't checked station files to see what significance this has with respect to local topography (although my recollection is that the area is pretty flat). I would expect that, once it gets a reasonable length of record, the AWS will have extreme minima below -10 in all three winter months, and an overall record low probably down in the -12 to -14 range. The -7.8 Laurier quotes is for the town site, which is a much warmer site (and only got to -3.4 on Saturday). This site has also moved around quite a bit during its history. Blair Trewin +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your message. -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ From: "Michael Thompson" To: Subject: Re: aus-wx: Cold morning Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 14:27:37 +1000 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com Funny thing is I thought about the retirement village at the time of the cold event. I did not go up there even though it is barely 1km from my front door. If it was 4C at sea level ( my home ) it probably was 1C cooler up there. Michael > Michael, > > Just a little extra bit of local news from that event. I agree that I don't remember hearing of snow in Wollongong as in the city centre, but probably the lowest report in the Illawarra area would have been a brief mention of a flurry lasting a few minutes at the retirement village at the top of Mt Warrigul, which would be around 100-130m elevation and only 3-4km inland. > > You're right about the snow level on the escarpment also, it was fairly clear to see the snow line by the areas of white trees (snow pasted) which was around halfway down the mountains, which certainly would've meant flurries to lower levels. > > Andrew Godsman > > > ---------- > > From: Michael Thompson[SMTP:michaelt at ozemail.com.au] > > Reply To: aussie-weather at world.std.com > > Sent: Sunday, 4 June 2000 8:36 > > To: aussie-weather at world.std.com > > Subject: Re: aus-wx: Cold morning > > > > If snow fell in Wollongong during this event I missed it and I was outside > > observing every last drop of cold rain as the temperature which had been 17C > > earlier in day had plummeted to 4C, this is about as cold as it gets here > > even on cold clear nights ( like last night ), let alone mid afternoon. > > There was no snow in the rain I saw. > > > > I drove to Robertson and snow was on the side of the road from about half > > way up Macquarie Pass, at about 400m, so flurries would have went lower. > > There was snow reported from the F6 tollway booths at Waterfall and by > > motorists along various parts of the F6, but we are talking 250 -400m > > elevation. Other reports in the area was snow at Mount Keira, again 450m odd > > high and at Yellow Rock a small village near Macquarie Pass, but again at > > least 200m elevation. > > > > Michael > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I know for a fact that the lower Blue Mountains and > > > > parts of Wollongong > > > > also observed snow during this event as mentioned in > > > > recent e-mails. > > > > > > > > > > > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > > To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com > > with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your > > message. > > -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ > > > > > EOM > > NOTICE - This message contains information intended only for the use of the addressee named above. It may also be confidential and/or privileged. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that you must not disseminate, copy or take any action in reliance on it. If you have received this message in error please notify postmaster at bhp.com.au. > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com > with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your > message. > -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your message. -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ From: "John Woodbridge" To: Subject: RE: aus-wx: A little bit of elevation! Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 16:22:10 +1000 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com Hi Jason, Anthony, Well WAHOOO! what a surprise. I mounted a thermometer on the fencepost at the bottom of my 100m driveway. This location is 15m lower in elevation than the one I use for recording, which is conveniently close to the house and hence on top of the ridge. Overnight min here was measured at 7.0C, whereas at bottom of driveway... just 2.5C!!! 4.5C difference in 15m altitude!! Which just goes to show how important location and a bit of elevation really is. >snip Subject: aus-wx: Kangeroo Pt Temps I know when I used to ride to rockcliming at KP in the winter, the temp increased by maybe 4-6 degrees as soon as you drop down to the river. It went from bloody cold (on a pushie) to a reasonably pleasant temp. The difference was more pronounced the colder and stiller the night was. Although the new station is back a bit from the river, it surrounds it on 3 sides. +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your message. -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ From: Blair Trewin Subject: Re: aus-wx: Australia sub 30... To: aussie-weather at world.std.com Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 16:36:59 +1000 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com > > Here's one for the Database Kings (or maybe it isn't): > > Just running through the obs Australia wide for today (30 May), and its > noticable that every station in Australia reported a (rounded) max below > 30C. There were a few 29s - Kowanyama (Qld), Maningrida, Milingimbi, > Oenpelli (all NT) and Kuri Bay (WA), but not a single 30 anywhere. Is > this the first time this has been recorded in May? I'm not sure where my > money would lie with that question, but I reckon there's a fair chance > that it is. Anyone? > > Cheers, > > Jonty. This is an incredibly complex thing to do a comprehensive historic check on, but I have run a check looking for days when it was under 30 (or missing data) at all of a selection of hot spots: Mardie, Broome, Kalumburu, Wyndham, Darwin, Jabiru, Weipa, Kowanyama and Palmerville. There were 94 such days in the 1968-99 period, only one of which was in May: 24 May 1974. I can't guarantee that it didn't get to 30 somewhere else. Will pursue further. Blair Trewin +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your message. -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ From: Blair Trewin Subject: Re: aus-wx: New BOM BNE Site: Was- Cold snap moves on?? To: aussie-weather at world.std.com Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 18:55:52 +1000 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com > > Hi Anthony, (always strange addressing some one with the same name :-) > > Anthony Spierings wrote: > > > > > I must have missed the memorandum, where again is the new site located? > > > > I think that the two Brisbane sites are also causing inconsistency in > > reporting by the local media. I keep hearing a forecast/recorded minimum on > > one TV/radio station (take your pick) only to hear another forecast/recorded > > minimum on another not 30 minutes later! Comments. > > The new site is located at Kangaroo Point. It certainly does provide > some confusion - essentially, it was thought that the Brisbane AP was > not representative of Brisbane itself, because it could be a pleasant > 27C at the AP, but be in the low 30's in the suburbs. And with winter, > it was thought that the mins at the AP were too high, as it was colder > in the suburbs. > > Well, we'll find out if the first is true when summer comes, but it > certainly doesn't seem to be true for winter mins! The first thought > that came into my mind was thinking back to micro-climates (eg, New York > 'heat island effect.') But I wouldn't have thought that Brisbane was > large enough to create that! But Kangaroo Point is surrounded by > highrises apartment buildings that overlook the CBD onto the river. My > guess is probably that the temperatures are probably moderated from the > Brisbane River - but that will depend on how close it is the river. > Also - if it is near highrise buildings, then perhaps the highrise > buildings do emit some heat from heating etc. This is just pure > speculation though. Blair, do you know exactly where the Brisbane site > is located? > > No doubt I agree with you about confusion occuring from the media - > which site do they use, the Brisbane AP, or the Brisbane CBD? Well - no > doubt the media will use this to the advantage. In cold snaps, there'll > just reports the lowest of the two, and in heat waves they'll just > report the highest of the two. So that'll give the public the wrong > perception. They may even go so far as to mix results, eg - > hypothetical situation: > Brisbane AP: 26/37 > Brisbane CBD: 24/41 > > They may say "Brisbane had a min of 26C and a max of 41C" - which will > essentially be correct - but misleading. > > The best thing that could happen, is that the two be given completely > different names as to try and eliminate ambiguity - but which station is > the "proper" one? To my knowledge, the Brisbane AP still remains as the > official recording site of Brisbane - but the Brisbane CBD one is just > so people will stop complaining that the temperatures at the AP are not > representative of the "actual" temperature in the suburbs. > Unfortunately, people don't understand the measurement system of > temperatures (ie in a Stevenson screen), and think that because they got > 40C on their verandah with a tin roof, that it was 5C hotter then the AP > which recorded 35C - thus the AP temperature to them is wrong. > > As you already said - confusion has already started with different sets > of mins and maxes being given out! (Unless of course this took place > over a time when the BoM updated their temperature forecasts). The 'Brisbane' temperatures going into the Bureau capital cities listing are the city ones, as of a couple of weeks ago. Whilst I wasn't involved in the exact reasons for looking for a city site, I gather that looking for a site which represented summer temperatures in the urban area had something to do with it. I doubt if winter minima were a major consideration. In any case, Brisbane Airport seems to be quite a cold site for minima, especially since a site change in 1986-87 which has had a major impact on extreme minima in the winter half of the year (if you have a look at the date records on my web page, you'll see that many of the records between May and September are from the post-1987 period). Factors which have an influence on local-scale minimum temperature variations (over and above larger-scale factors such as air mass characteristics, cloud cover, broad-scale winds etc.) include: - local topography (valleys are cool, hilltops are warm) - local site characteristics - the more buildings, construction, roads etc. are nearby, the warmer the site is likely to be - location within the urban area (cooler further away from the urban centre) - distance from or exposure to coast Under clear, calm conditions, topography and site characteristics become crucial, except in the immediate vicinity of the coast. Hence, Brisbane Airport (flat, grassy, outside main urban area, near coast) is a cool site; Brisbane City (built-up, near urban centre, further inland) is warm; Amberley (flat, grassy, outside urban area, inland) is the coldest of all. The warmest sites are islands or coastal headlands (Cape Moreton and, to a lesser extent, Gold Coast Seaway are good examples in the Brisbane area), but hilltop sites (such as John's at Mt. Crosby) often aren't far behind. Topography can have some extreme impacts, especially at high altitude or over snow. There are valley sites in the high country of California and Nevada which have MEAN summer diurnal ranges of 25-30 degrees (one site I know of, at around 2400 metres, has a mean August max/min of 28/0, has been below -10 in every month of the year, and had a day with a max/min of 31/-11 a couple of years ago). I'll be visiting said site on a fact-finding mission in early August (actually, I'm doing an orienteering competition there). I suspect a good range of clothes will be in order....At hilltop sites at similar elevations, a mean max/min of 20/10 is more typical. Blair Trewin +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your message. -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ From: "Anthony Spierings" To: Subject: aus-wx: RE: New BOM BNE Site Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 20:33:44 +1000 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com Hi Blair, > Whilst I wasn't involved in the exact reasons for looking for a city > site, I gather that looking for a site which represented summer > temperatures in the urban area had something to do with it. I doubt > if winter minima were a major consideration. In any case, Brisbane > Airport seems to be quite a cold site for minima, especially since a > site change in 1986-87 which has had a major impact on extreme minima > in the winter half of the year (if you have a look at the date records > on my web page, you'll see that many of the records between May and > September are from the post-1987 period). > Thanks for the info. I half suspected that the new site will give better "summer readings". Feel sorry for the BoM. Every clown, myself included, looks at their $2 gauge; looks at the BoM data; then shakes their head at how a properly calibrated instrument can get it so wrong :) The good news is that, next summer, we can look forward to Channel 7's Headmaster (Frank Warwick) saying his favourite summer phrase, "What a SCORCHER it was today", a bit more often. Now, don't you look forward to that? Regards, Anthony Spierings (Bring back Ray! Bring back Ray!) +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your message. -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 21:03:32 +1000 From: David Carroll X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en To: Aussie Weather Subject: aus-wx: Great Western Highway - Update Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com HI All.. A snow storm has hit about 20 km from Bathurst on Great Western Hwy.. Snow is settling at Yetholme, and in another hour road will be closed.. Thanks to police scanner, also snow on Mitchell Hwy towards Orange is falling, which is 15 kms west of Bathurst.. Hwy patrol- also patrolling Cherry Tree HIll, Mudgee/Portland Rd, snow falling heavily. Will keep updates coming.. Dave +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your message. -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ X-Sender: jdeguara at pop.ihug.com.au X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 21:52:27 +1000 To: aussie-weather at world.std.com From: Jimmy Deguara Subject: aus-wx: Storms out in the pacific Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com Hi folks, I have just loaded the satpic 9:51pm.... and there are a nice band of storms off the coast between NSW and New Zealand. Worth a look.... Jimmy Deguara ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------- Jimmy Deguara from Schofields, Sydney President of Australian Severe Weather Association Inc. (ASWA) http://severeweather.asn.au e-mail: jdeguara at ihug.com.au homepage with Michael Bath note new URL http://australiasevereweather.com/ +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your message. -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ From: "James Chambers" To: Subject: Re: aus-wx: A little bit of elevation! Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 22:18:40 +1000 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com Hi John and all Congratulations on your 2.5C this morning!! My place is in a valley just south of Brisbane (Woodridge) and I've had several frosts lately. These are my last 4 days' minimum temperature readings: Fri: 2.7C Sat: 2.0C Sun: 1.6C Mon: 1.4C These are the coldest temps I've recorded since at least the 1997 winter, and the sequence is up there with the best consecutive frost days. Mind you, I'm living 8km away from where I used to live which is making all the difference (which was higher and had more 'clutter'). It looks like the Tues min temp will be much higher than previous days. The wind is fairly constant at 5-10kn and there's a lot of cirrus cloud (see satpic). I'd go for a 3-5C minimum temp. Btw, I'm using 2 digital thermometers - no S. Screen. Current temp: 8.1C Regards James Chambers www.ozemail.com.au/~jamestorm/bristorm.html >Well WAHOOO! what a surprise. I mounted a thermometer on the >fencepost at the bottom of my 100m driveway. This location is 15m lower >in elevation than the one I use for recording, which is conveniently >close to the house and hence on top of the ridge. Overnight min >here was measured at 7.0C, whereas at bottom of driveway... just 2.5C!!! > >4.5C difference in 15m altitude!! > >Which just goes to show how important location and a bit of elevation >really is. +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your message. -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ X-Sender: jdeguara at pop.ihug.com.au X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 22:34:11 +1000 To: aussie-weather at world.std.com From: Jimmy Deguara Subject: aus-wx: Storm bands off the coast Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com Hi me again, I thought it would be a good idea to post a link of the satellite image I am talking about regards the storms off the coast in my previous e-mail: http://www.australiasevereweather.com/temp/gmsd.jpg Cheers. Jimmy Deguara ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------- Jimmy Deguara from Schofields, Sydney President of Australian Severe Weather Association Inc. (ASWA) http://severeweather.asn.au e-mail: jdeguara at ihug.com.au homepage with Michael Bath note new URL http://australiasevereweather.com/ +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your message. -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ From: "Paul Rands" To: "aussie-weather at world.std.com" Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 22:31:48 +1000 X-Mailer: PMMail 98 Standard (2.01.1600) For Windows NT (4.10.67766222) Subject: aus-wx: Coming to Brisbane Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com Hi there guys up north :) I will be in Brisbane from the 21st of June onwards for one week, if anyone would like to meet up, I would be glad to. I will have my own car with me, so travelling a little will be no problem. Let me know at this address: prands at efter-stormen.com >From the mind of Paul Rands (E-mail: paulrands at one.net.au - prands at efter-stormen.com - ICQ: 1254371) Personal Site: http://www2.one.net.au/~paulrands/ Canberra On-line: http://www2.one.net.au/~paulrands/canberra/ Australian Volvo Internet Centre: http://www2.one.net.au/~paulrands/ausvolvo/ Ofwerman on IRC (DAL Net) +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your message. -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ X-Sender: jdeguara at pop.ihug.com.au X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 22:41:12 +1000 To: aussie-weather at world.std.com From: Jimmy Deguara Subject: aus-wx: Storm bands off the coast Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com Hi me again, SORRY wrong link my sincere apologies - I am tired. You try and help and stuff - story of my life!!! I thought it would be a good idea to post a link of the satellite image I am talking about regards the storms off the coast in my previous e-mail: http://www.australiasevereweather.com/temp/gms/gmsd.jpg Cheers. Jimmy Deguara ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------- Jimmy Deguara from Schofields, Sydney President of Australian Severe Weather Association Inc. (ASWA) http://severeweather.asn.au e-mail: jdeguara at ihug.com.au homepage with Michael Bath note new URL http://australiasevereweather.com/ +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your message. -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------